EMERGENCY - TRYING TO HELP A FRIEND

[RememberTheWay]

I have Marek’s in my flock. We treated it as a vitamin deficiency before we had confirmed testing through RAL labs. It’s a mail order testing facility.

I’m not saying it is or it isn’t Marek’s because only testing can confirm or deny. I will say that from my experience Marek’s doesn’t read a text book. Every bird acts differently from my experience. I’ve had birds go lame and flip themselves over like you described. I have had very few show the classical “splits” everyone talks about. I’ve had some that have a huge appetite even though they cannot walk and others that don’t want to eat. The only pattern I have noticed with the strain I have is my younger birds under a year typically develop paralyses and my older birds generally waste away or develop cancer in one form or another.

I have seen a wide range in paralysis too. Some have nothing other than a limp for a long time before it progresses. My first bird that started it all was fine all day, everyone was on the roost at dusk. I needed to go back out when it was dark to do a couple things and found her on the floor unable to walk. She could only push herself backwards. I thought somehow she hurt her back. We did vitamins and some days she appeared like she was getting better and even had more strength but some days she appeared worse.

I found out about the mail in testing. My husband called and spoke to them. We ordered the tasting kit and it took a couple days to get in. Once it came in we clipped a toenail and dropped a couple drops of blood in the vial. Checked what we wanted testing. Filled out the form, went to the post office and overnighted it. 3 days later I had the results in my email.

I do not have any videos of any of mine and honestly if I were you I would not rely on a video for diagnosis. If your friend decides to put her down you can get a necropsy done so they know for sure what they are dealing with or you can try the route I took. I have included the link to the website below.

https://www.vetdna.com/about-us

Curious what is the earliest age you've seen it manifest?

 

[Bkaye]

Curious what is the earliest age you've seen it manifest?

From what I remember my youngest so far started at around 12 weeks. Stressful events are a big trigger. Most of my losses has been around pol and close to a year old for my boys. I have a bad strain here and I have seen all three strains here with my birds.

 

[RememberTheWay]

From what I remember my youngest so far started at around 12 weeks. Stressful events are a big trigger. Most of my losses has been around pol and close to a year old for my boys. I have a bad strain here and I have seen all three strains here with my birds.

Man- that is terrible. But you know I was reading something the other day that said it was estimated that 70-80% of flocks (including breeder flocks) actually have some from of Marek's. That most are probably unaware their birds are asymptomatic carriers. I also had read that Marek's isn't tested for when certifying for NPIP. Which is interesting.

Anyways - I am really sorry to hear you've had such a stressful time with your flock. That has to be terrible to raise a pullet to POL and then have it die. Just when you think you've about to have return, bam! What a terrible thing.

I have been keeping chickens for going on 7 yrs now. And this year has been my hardest Year so far. Prior to this year it really had been super smooth sailing no problems at all. Then 2024 happen and the strain of Coccidiosis straight from H*ll hit. I swear it has been one thing after another. I also help a lot of locals to rehab birds and take in rescues so I probably see more then most.

 

[Bkaye]

I have heard that as well but some strains are worse than others.

I understand how you feel. I started with chickens in March of 2022, we got our Marek’s diagnosis the January 2023. I believe we lost one other bird a couple months prior from Marek’s. She developed what we originally thought was fowl box. I believe it was now an infection that her body couldn’t fight due to Marek’s. All of our original birds were raised together and purchased a week apart from hatcheries. We bought our hatchery birds vaccinated. It’s been one roller coaster after another. We’ve tried hatching out birds a couple times with no success. I actually had one of our bantams sitting on a couple large fowl eggs when we got our diagnosis. I’ve tried to hatch out quail danver chicks. Our first batch of eggs we purchased one of those babies were the first to develop symptoms. We lost every bird from that hatch. Oldest one making it a week from their first birthday. We found someone who said they bred for resistance. Those were hatched out during the Easter HAL last year. I have 2 remaining from that hatch. And they are both now over a year old. Some of our babies were lost to coccidiosis. Even with treatment using corid, sulfa and toltrazuril wouldn’t touch it. Confirmed doing our own fecal floats.

Our original lf birds that were vaccinated we have lost a few. One to paralysis one died suddenly and a couple had ocular Marek’s. We have hatched out 5 babies from them. A couple were the ones I spoke of that were under our bantam when we got our diagnosis. Out of the 5 babies we have 2 left. One of the 2 has ocular Marek’s.

I have given up on trying to have chickens. I have lost countless birds. My number of deaths far exceed what I have living and it’s heartbreaking. If any more come they will be vaccinated but even that I know is no guarantee. I was given some guinea eggs a few months ago and have heard good things about people raising them when they have Marek’s. I’ve hatched out 10 and so far they have been thriving. They will be 9 weeks old at the beginning of next week. By this age with the chickens I’ve battled coccidiosis countless times. I haven’t had a single issue so far and they are in the same coop I used as my bachelor pad.

 

[RememberTheWay]

I have heard that as well but some strains are worse than others.

I understand how you feel. I started with chickens in March of 2022, we got our Marek’s diagnosis the January 2023. I believe we lost one other bird a couple months prior from Marek’s. She developed what we originally thought was fowl box. I believe it was now an infection that her body couldn’t fight due to Marek’s. All of our original birds were raised together and purchased a week apart from hatcheries. We bought our hatchery birds vaccinated. It’s been one roller coaster after another. We’ve tried hatching out birds a couple times with no success. I actually had one of our bantams sitting on a couple large fowl eggs when we got our diagnosis. I’ve tried to hatch out quail danver chicks. Our first batch of eggs we purchased one of those babies were the first to develop symptoms. We lost every bird from that hatch. Oldest one making it a week from their first birthday. We found someone who said they bred for resistance. Those were hatched out during the Easter HAL last year. I have 2 remaining from that hatch. And they are both now over a year old. Some of our babies were lost to coccidiosis. Even with treatment using corid, sulfa and toltrazuril wouldn’t touch it. Confirmed doing our own fecal floats.

Our original lf birds that were vaccinated we have lost a few. One to paralysis one died suddenly and a couple had ocular Marek’s. We have hatched out 5 babies from them. A couple were the ones I spoke of that were under our bantam when we got our diagnosis. Out of the 5 babies we have 2 left. One of the 2 has ocular Marek’s.

I have given up on trying to have chickens. I have lost countless birds. My number of deaths far exceed what I have living and it’s heartbreaking. If any more come they will be vaccinated but even that I know is no guarantee. I was given some guinea eggs a few months ago and have heard good things about people raising them when they have Marek’s. I’ve hatched out 10 and so far they have been thriving. They will be 9 weeks old at the beginning of next week. By this age with the chickens I’ve battled coccidiosis countless times. I haven’t had a single issue so far and they are in the same coop I used as my bachelor pad.

That's really Interesting. I really adore my chickens so having to face a decision of whether to continue it or not would be very hard for me. I am VERY interested in breeding disease resistant birds. Silkies, honestly are what started me on that road. I absolutely adore them, but as a whole, so far I have found the silkies I've gotten to be very weak birds. They seem to always be hit the hardest no matter what. I intend to work to change that. So I research. So far I've seen two schools of thought- 1 " True disease resistance is a bird that is exposed and never gets sick- therefore kill cull anything that gets symptoms" and 2 " true immunity comes from a bird being exposed, becoming symptomatic, and then surviving, thus building immunity" the later believes that if we kill cull all symptomatic birds and never give them the opportunity to survive that we may actually inadvertantly be weakening the species. Problem is I actually see clear logic in both thoughts. In general, in humans at least, we tend to think that we gain immunity by the latter and that we must be exposed and develop symptoms however slight an immune response, to have true immunity. So I will continue to research and learn and apply that knowledge to a few lines of birds I'm working on here. I am still very much in the infancy stage of my understanding of genetics and breeding but I think it is a worthy goal.

 

[Bkaye]

When I first started dealing with it I gave my symptomatic birds a chance. From my experience they only declined. Also symptomatic birds shed the virus at a very very rapid pace. So now when I have a symptomatic bird showing paralysis I cull. I don’t want my birds to suffer and I don’t want to prolong the inevitable. If I have one starting to waste away I try everything I can in the off chance it’s something else.

Every flock is different so you need to find out what works for you if you indeed have Marek’s. Like I said in my first post only testing will give you the answer you are looking for. Some birds are more susceptible to Marek’s, seabrights belgium breeds and silkies being a few. I’ve heard Cochins are as well however I started with 2 cochins in my original flock and I still have one. I still have a silkie from my original flock as well. My Danvers is what got hit the hardest.

 

[Eggcessive]

If vitamin E and B complex do not help, it would be good to get a diagnosis. There are diseases and conditions that may mimic Mareks. Back in post 13 are links to a lab that does testing on live birds, and another is a list of state vet labs that do necropsies and testing.

 

[RememberTheWay]

When I first started dealing with it I gave my symptomatic birds a chance. From my experience they only declined. Also symptomatic birds shed the virus at a very very rapid pace. So now when I have a symptomatic bird showing paralysis I cull. I don’t want my birds to suffer and I don’t want to prolong the inevitable. If I have one starting to waste away I try everything I can in the off chance it’s something else.

Every flock is different so you need to find out what works for you if you indeed have Marek’s. Like I said in my first post only testing will give you the answer you are looking for. Some birds are more susceptible to Marek’s, seabrights belgium breeds and silkies being a few. I’ve heard Cochins are as well however I started with 2 cochins in my original flock and I still have one. I still have a silkie from my original flock as well. My Danvers is what got hit the hardest.

Btw- just so future readers understand - I am posting about someone else bird.

You know- and that is exactly why I am researching breeding stronger more resilient birds - especially the breeds you mentioned. The silkies of mine I mentioned actually died from a serious strain of Coccidiosis before I ever had heard about endocox/toltrazuril and that experience spurred me to research. Not Marek's. We don't have Marek's here so far. But when I think about the issue I kind of find it hard to believe anyone has a flock that truly hasn't been exposed. If it travels on the wind up to five miles? I mean come on, who are we kidding? Then knowing that everything you do is basically in vain because all your efforts could be foiled by wind, a wild bird, a jogger jogging down the street!

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know I have heard from other breeders who began to select for resistance and now they don't see problems. I have to wonder what's happening there. I've considered breeding in a known resistant breed to a line of silkie/Danvers but also wonder how long it will take to breed back out the unwanted traits.

 

[RememberTheWay]

WANTED TO UPDATE-
@Eggcessive @Bkaye @azygous

It's been a long slow journey. I have a facility that I use to rehab birds and follow strict bio-security (changing clothes, showering, special shoes, closed doors, separate "hospital" facility)

Anyways - I took on the bird after she quit eating. I began tube feeding and giving poultry cell, high dose Vitamin B complex Liquid (human), Chinese Skullcap, St
John's Wort, brewers yeast, and scrambled eggs. Up until two days ago, everything I thought I was seeing as "improvements" were so subtle they were easily dismissed with mental doubts that I was imagining them. For examples- it seemed like her toes were uncurling slightly, and that she was regaining use of her legs just slightly, she also was more alert, then her appetite returned, when I was tube feeding I also began to notice she was getting stronger and could fight me more. But all of these things were so subtle I was doubting they were real and continuesly thinking that any day she would be gone bc it was just wishful thinking on my part.

Then last night came- and when I came in to give meds and night feed/water I noticed she was halfway standing and her legs were almost right under her but not quite. I fed, medicated, and left. Then this morning, and when I came in she was standing and walking!!!! I am absolutely thrilled to tell her bird mom that she will be returning home soon! Will post videos later today of her progress!

 

[Eggcessive]

Thanks for the update and glad that she is improving.