Eyelid & face swelling, with small initial bump- but no bubbles?

[chickieBok]

Hi BYC community, I’m writing because my girls have me stumped. I have a small mixed flock of 4 that I adopted as chicks from a local farm in Feb: a Barnevelder, 2 Americauna / EE, and one that was supposed to be a Cuckoo Maran, now suspected to be a Barred Rock.

It started last Tuesday (5 days ago) when I noticed swelling in my Barnevelder’s (Rubi) eyelid and surrounding eye area with some redness (affected vs unaffected eye in first 2 photos). After some intense research, I wearily concluded that it must have been a sting of some sort since to me, it looked like there was an area on the eyelid that appeared more raised than the rest (a small initial bump with no apparent physical damage), but she seemed to have absolutely no other symptoms other than the swelling, with maybe slight congestion that seemed understandable with sinus swelling (no rattles or coughs, just a deeper cluck that seemed gone the next day). I checked the other girls and didn’t see any swelling like hers; they were frolicking about happy as could be as I snapped photos of them. I decided to closely monitor Rubi as she was still acting completely normal, eating and drinking.

Three days went by (next few photos) and the swelling and redness seemed to subside ever so slightly. No congestion, coughs, or sneezes.
I chose not to interfere as I really try to take that “let nature run its course” approach unless absolutely necessary, since I am a chronic over-parenter; especially since it didn’t seem to affect her behavior or appetite. She’s also the most aloof of my girls, so I take extra care not to make her additionally weary of me unless I have to.
I relaxed a bit since it certainly wasn’t getting worse, but I still didn’t feel 100% confident about the sting diagnosis since there aren’t any hives on our property that I could find.

Fast forward to Saturday AM (when I started writing this) and that is when I first saw the small bump and minor swelling around the eye of the second bird, an “EE” Marmalade.

I immediately looked back on my photos to compare again the last few days, trying to confirm the swelling had been subsiding on Rubi and it wasn’t just my hopeful eye- I then discovered Marmalade had actually presented a very small bump in her lower lid on the second day of monitoring (Wednesday, see photos) - I had totally missed it because there was NO swelling around the eye at this initial stage, which is what I had been looking for. Now I knew it couldn’t be a second, already unlikely sting.

My fiancé suggested mosquitos which made perfect sense to me, until I couldn’t find anything solid about their bites being this much of a problem for chickens.

There are no eye bubbles, no foam- just a very small amount of clear discharge occasionally, not constantly. I’ve seen both affected girls scratch their faces as if it is possibly itchy. It’s affecting the right eye (their right) on both girls.

As of today (Sunday AM), Marmalade is noticeably more swollen where Rubi looks much less so (last photos). They aren’t exhibiting any other typical behaviors of either MG or Coryza which is why I am here.

I am desperately hoping someone recognizes something in their photos that I am not able to, as no photos I’ve found of either disease or any eye swelling on this site or the wide web has matched what I’m seeing on my girls.

I was hesitant to start them on the Tylan 50 since I have been unable to confirm any other persistent symptoms other than the eyelid and face swelling, and the initial small bumps don’t seem to fall under anything but a bite or pox.

I also filled out the questionnaire below for those that prefer to read that way; I tried to make sure all necessary info was present either there or in the paragraphs above.

I apologize deeply for the long winded post, but I want to include anything of possible relevance and please let me know if more information is needed. THANK YOU IMMENSELY FOR READING.

1) What type of bird , age and weight (does the chicken seem or feel lighter or thinner than the others.)
Born end of Feb 2023, 1 Barnevelder and 1 Americauna seem affected out of 4 girls. No noticeable weight changes, and none have begun to lay as of today.

2) What is the behavior, exactly.
See above

3) How long has the bird been exhibiting symptoms?
5 days now.

4) Are other birds exhibiting the same symptoms?
Only the 2 birds out of 4 have exhibited the initial eyelid bumps, then the eyelid/ eye area swelling.

5) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma.
No signs of physical trauma- no blood, scratches, cuts, or scabs.

6) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation.
I am utterly stumped. At first I thought bee, but I think that is now much less likely with two birds presenting. Fiancé suggested mosquitos?

7) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all.
I feed Nutrena Starter Grower crumble, with daily dandelion greens, occasional millet on the chillier days, and occasional kitchen scraps. They have access to chick grit in addition to the rocky soil outside, as well as 1 fresh litre of plain water with nipple drinker that they have always used. Sometimes they seem to be consuming slightly less water than normal, but I am knowingly over critical. Our weather has been absolutely bonkers here in zone 6A over the last 2 weeks. Super hot and muggy last week, now it’s 30 degrees cooler.

8) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc.
Poop looks normal, and what seems to be a normal amount of cecal.

9) What has been the treatment you have administered so far?
None, as I did not want to interfere with a suspected bee sting initially since there was no stinger to remove. And then once I noticed the second bird, I haven’t wanted to attempt to treat anything that I was unsure of. I have Tylan 50 on hand.

10 ) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird til you can get to a vet?
Ideally, I prefer to avoid the fees of the vet unless it is an absolute life-threatening emergency. While they do double as my pets, we try to be as self-sufficient and self-sustaining as possible where possible. I trust community input over my lack of hands-on experience; research only gets you so far until something wonky like this happens!

11) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help.
See below!

12) Describe the housing/bedding in use
They live in a roughly 6x4x5 raised coop built inside a ventilation-modified shed with daily access to a 6x9x6 run and their chicken garden (pallet w/ safe plants- only serving grass currently). I was tedious about personally making sure there are zero sharp points or edges, and bo leftover sharp material after construction (additionally, I have yet to see any bullying between the fab 4) Planning to let them out for supervised free ranging when my schedule settles. We use the large pine bedding flakes from TSC.

TIMELINE OF PHOTOS
Tuesday, Rubi

Unaffected eye, same moment

Wednesday, Marmalade (the small bump I did not initially notice until later reviewing these photos)

Marm (affected) & Roweena (unaffected)

Wednesday, Rubi

(no photos of marmalade, as this was before I reviews the photos)
Thursday, Rubi

Saturday, PM: Marm and Rubi

Sunday, AM (visibly increased swelling on Marm)

 

[dawg53]

I doubt it's bee stings or mosquitos. It could possibly be a pecking order issue, especially around the feeder and roosting at night. I've seen it happen and have had to deal with swelling near an eye which required lancing, much like water on the knee to relieve the pressure.
I'm not saying that you'd have to go that far though, hopefully.
You'll have to observe for any picking or pecking going on when they eat and when they roost at night. Pinless peepers would help IF that's the case.

 

[chickieBok]

I doubt it's bee stings or mosquitos. It could possibly be a pecking order issue, especially around the feeder and roosting at night. I've seen it happen and have had to deal with swelling near an eye which required lancing, much like water on the knee to relieve the pressure.
I'm not saying that you'd have to go that far though, hopefully.
You'll have to observe for any picking or pecking going on when they eat and when they roost at night. Pinless peepers would help IF that's the case.

Thank you so much for your reply! I initially ruled out fighting since it didn’t look like anything broke the skin, and the secondary swelling seemed to take a few days to present, especially in the second bird… but these ARE the two girls on the bottom half of the order- so now it’s back on my list.

I’m always on alert for bullying, but they also all seem to defer to me whenever I am around. I have suspected that they act differently when I am not present, but that’s obviously not possible to confirm without a coop cam and I hadn’t had an urgent reason to spy on them until now. I had already began acquiring materials for additional waterer and feeders, just in case it could be water or food hoarding. They have a single roost bar that lays across the entire width of the coop, and they squish together all on one side of it. A coop cam is sounding more and more necessary to me if I can rule out the internal possibilities. I really appreciate your input ♡

 

[dawg53]

Putting out another feeder away from the original feeder will work. I've done it and it works.

I have a single roost bar in my largest coop that runs the length of the coop which can easily accommodate about 15 birds. The most I had inside the coop for the past 3 years was 11 birds, and they all crowded at one end more often than not. There was some bickering and picking going on, luckily nothing major. As soon as it was dark, all the drama stopped because they cant see in the dark.

 

[chickieBok]

Putting out another feeder away from the original feeder will work. I've done it and it works.

I have a single roost bar in my largest coop that runs the length of the coop which can easily accommodate about 15 birds. The most I had inside the coop for the past 3 years was 11 birds, and they all crowded at one end more often than not. There was some bickering and picking going on, luckily nothing major. As soon as it was dark, all the drama stopped because they cant see in the dark.

It will be a third feeder, so I hope so! I’m adding the second water source today.

I just spent some more time watching them- Could they be poking themselves in the eye with hay from the ground and the newer nesting box? Can they get allergies?
I still didn’t observe any bullying behaviors- just Marmalade scratching her head a few times and an extensive group preening session. They all took turns eating and drinking from the various places with no squabbles.
When you dealt with the bullying and swelling- did it present this same way?

I’m just totally thrown off by the lack of cuts/blood or arguing, and then the latent swelling- I spend a lot of the daytime within earshot of them and they are a pretty quiet bunch compared to my neighbors’ flocks.

I even checked for evidence of bugs in their feathers and found nothing to note there either.

Any and all input is deeply appreciated. I will update with any daily changes and/or when they seem fully recovered. Thank you again.

 

[dawg53]

Anything is just about possible with chickens.
When they go to roost for the night, that's the best time to observe and listen. Lock them up for the night and listen for any squabbling or fighting. There is a pecking order for roosting too, that's what it's all about. The crowding at one end doesnt help and it would be the time for picking and pecking to get their favorite roosting spot.

I've actually seen a hen peck another hen's foot forcing the hen to move further away.
The only way to prevent picking and pecking inside the coop is to not let them inside the coop until right at dark. That way they cant see each other very well, or at the very least minimal picking and pecking.
That's what I ended up doing for that particular group of birds.
Then during the hot summer nights, most of them spread out on the roost.

One injury I had to deal with was swelling right above an eye. It was the size of a small marble. I had to drain it using a syringe with a needle from the inside of the upper eyelid. Another hen had pecked her real hard causing the injury.
It didnt take much pressure to penetrate it and a small amount of clear liquid drained and the swelling completely disappeared when it drained.
A small dab of Neosporin in the eye prevented infection.
Below is a photo of the hen with swelling above the eye. I did the fluid draining in January 2012.
You can see in the last photo the hens eye was completely normal afterwards.

 

[chickieBok]

Anything is just about possible with chickens.
When they go to roost for the night, that's the best time to observe and listen. Lock them up for the night and listen for any squabbling or fighting. There is a pecking order for roosting too, that's what it's all about. The crowding at one end doesnt help and it would be the time for picking and pecking to get their favorite roosting spot.

I've actually seen a hen peck another hen's foot forcing the hen to move further away.
The only way to prevent picking and pecking inside the coop is to not let them inside the coop until right at dark. That way they cant see each other very well, or at the very least minimal picking and pecking.
That's what I ended up doing for that particular group of birds.
Then during the hot summer nights, most of them spread out on the roost.

One injury I had to deal with was swelling right above an eye. It was the size of a small marble. I had to drain it using a syringe with a needle from the inside of the upper eyelid. Another hen had pecked her real hard causing the injury.
It didnt take much pressure to penetrate it and a small amount of clear liquid drained and the swelling completely disappeared when it drained.
A small dab of Neosporin in the eye prevented infection.
Below is a photo of the hen with swelling above the eye. I did the fluid draining in January 2012.
You can see in the last photo the hens eye was completely normal afterwards.

View attachment 3528994View attachment 3529005View attachment 3529007


View attachment 3529008View attachment 3529009

Update: Marmalade looks much worse this AM, and now there are bubbles Two girls are still completely asymptomatic and the other affected girl has no change in appearance since probably Friday.

Should I start them all on the Tylan 50 or is are there still any less disheartening possibilities? My poor girls.

Monday AM, Marmalade

 

[BastyPutt]

So there are folks much more qualified than I here, and I usually will throw out what I think it is and advise based on what I would do with my birds.

I am also newer to antibiotics. We have been keeping chickens for a long time, but always treated them naturally or attempted to treat them. Our flock is so big at this point that I am not so lax about these things anymore.

With that said, I am going to say that what you have here (because they are all showing symptoms) is Mycoplasma gallisepticum (MG) or Coryza and you will want to start the Tylan ASAP as well as draining and cleaning their eyes.

We have a few different groups of birds here and one showed signs of MG In quarantine. No bubbles, but eyes exactly like this. We treated 2 days with Tylan and he was cleared up. Unfortunately he will never be allowed to live with the flock, but he now resides with the goats. Seems happy. But the antibiotics works.

You have some time atleast with either infection to see if one of the more prominent members comments today or tomorrow

 

[chickieBok]

So there are folks much more qualified than I here, and I usually will throw out what I think it is and advise based on what I would do with my birds.

I am also newer to antibiotics. We have been keeping chickens for a long time, but always treated them naturally or attempted to treat them. Our flock is so big at this point that I am not so lax about these things anymore.

With that said, I am going to say that what you have here (because they are all showing symptoms) is Mycoplasma gallisepticum (MG) or Coryza and you will want to start the Tylan ASAP as well as draining and cleaning their eyes.

We have a few different groups of birds here and one showed signs of MG In quarantine. No bubbles, but eyes exactly like this. We treated 2 days with Tylan and he was cleared up. Unfortunately he will never be allowed to live with the flock, but he now resides with the goats. Seems happy. But the antibiotics works.

You have some time atleast with either infection to see if one of the more prominent members comments today or tomorrow

Thank you for your reply. I was so hesitant to diagnose them with MG until the bubbles appeared, but then still hesitant to begin on antibiotics without a few more experienced opinions- because as you said, am newer to antibiotics as well and I don’t want to use them where they aren’t completely necessary… but I also want to do what’s best for their comfort and well being.

I can start then on Tylan 50 asap.
(.25 ml per pound 3x day) ?
Do I start with a warm compress as far as draining goes? I can also apply neosporin if that will help with secondary infection.

Thank you again for your input. My girls and I really appreciate it.