Genetics for breeding a blue feathered show bird with black lacing

[NatJ]

The problem with this is that dilution genes effect  all melanin in the bird. That means all black is diluted to blue. If  all of a bird's melanin is diluted to blue then it is impossible to have a blue feather laced with black because that black lacing would also be diluted. The "lacing" that you see in birds with andalusian blue is not black but a very dark blue.

It is dark blue not black. Like you say with other laced birds you can change the black to blue. It's the same, once you add blue the black turns to blue.
The laced pattern is caused by a combo of several genes. Most blue birds don't have that laced look because they don't have that combo of genes.
The nice blue laced Andalusians do. You put all the laced genes on Extended Black and add blue. The Extended Black can hold the laced pattern and with blue added it gives that laced blue look.
The blacks and splashes also have it but it just isn't as apparent.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I'm working with OP's description of a bird that LOOKS like it has black lacing and definitely has blue in the middle of the feathers.

Reading back through the thread, I think they may have been more in need of clarity on black/blue/splash and never being able to have true-breeding blues, than on the actual laced effect, but I could be wrong there. The basic idea for the lacing is just to find ones that have it, and breed more like them.

Now I'd be interested in seeing how it would play out with chocolate instead of blue.

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. Now that you mention chocolate, I also wonder about lavender. How many of the dilution genes can leave a darker edge on the feather on a laced/Extended Black bird? Lavender and chocolate both have the advantage that they can breed true, unlike actual blue.

 

[AinaWGSD]

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. Now that you mention chocolate, I also wonder about lavender. How many of the dilution genes can leave a darker edge on the feather on a laced/Extended Black bird? Lavender and chocolate both have the advantage that they can breed true, unlike actual blue.

Hmm. I thought the other name for lavender was self blue because the feather is a uniform color all the way through. I've never seen a lavender bird with lacing (not that I've seen that many lavender birds in person), I'm not sure if it's possible. I really need to read up on the pattern genes and extended black, I'm not as familiar with them as I'd like.

 

[NatJ]

Hmm. I thought the other name for lavender was self blue because the feather is a uniform color all the way through. I've never seen a lavender bird with lacing (not that I've seen that many lavender birds in person), I'm not sure if it's possible. I really need to read up on the pattern genes and extended black, I'm not as familiar with them as I'd like.

Yes, very valid point. I was forgetting about that. Although given how few "black" birds have the genetics for lacing, I wouldn't expect to see it in most lavender birds anyway.

 

[Amer]

If blue is a dilute of black how can you have both colors on one bird?
If it's a blue bird with black lacing what about the splash version? Black lacing? Blue lacing?

The problem with this is that dilution genes effect  all melanin in the bird. That means all black is diluted to blue. If  all of a bird's melanin is diluted to blue then it is impossible to have a blue feather laced with black because that black lacing would also be diluted. The "lacing" that you see in birds with andalusian blue is not black but a very dark blue.

It is dark blue not black. Like you say with other laced birds you can change the black to blue. It's the same, once you add blue the black turns to blue.
The laced pattern is caused by a combo of several genes. Most blue birds don't have that laced look because they don't have that combo of genes.
The nice blue laced Andalusians do. You put all the laced genes on Extended Black and add blue. The Extended Black can hold the laced pattern and with blue added it gives that laced blue look.
The blacks and splashes also have it but it just isn't as apparent.

Now I'd be interested in seeing how it would play out with chocolate instead of blue.

No.
It can be black.
From what I understand, the blue gene doesn't just make the feathers produce less eumelanin, it changes how the melanin is distributed.
Instead of the pigment being spread evenly over the bird, it is clustered and stacked, leaving areas of black and areas of white. The overall effect is grey.
IE: the grey areas in this comic. But this is at a microscopic level so you can't see the stacked pigments.

The soft edges of feathers and the soft hackle feathers have a different structure so the pigment is structured differently as well, allowing black to show. Additionally, the Pattern and Melanotic genes can increase the amount of black at the edge of the feathers. (Pg was introduced to many Ameraucanas from Andalusians but due to it's linkage to the pea comb and blue egg genes I believe Ml was not.)

 

[The Moonshiner]

No.
It can be black.
From what I understand, the blue gene doesn't just make the feathers produce less eumelanin, it changes how the melanin is distributed.
Instead of the pigment being spread evenly over the bird, it is clustered and stacked, leaving areas of black and areas of white. The overall affect is grey.
IE: the grey areas in this comic. But this is at a microscopic level so you can't see the stacked pigments.
View attachment 3938117
The soft edges of feathers and the soft hackle feathers have a different structure so the pigment is structured differently as well, allowing black to show. Additionally, the Pattern and Melanotic genes can increase the amount of black at the edge of the feathers. (Pg was introduced to many Ameraucanas from Andalusians but due to it's linkage to the pea comb and blue egg genes I believe Ml was not.)

You're getting too technical for me.
If it's "stacking" isn't it stacking blue on blue on blue? Enough stacked blue would still be blue but enough to look black?
In non Andalusian blue birds they can range in shade of blue. Some do appear black.
Is the range in shade from how much is stacked?

 

[Amer]

You're getting too technical for me.
If it's "stacking" isn't it stacking blue on blue on blue? Enough stacked blue would still be blue but enough to look black?
In non Andalusian blue birds they can range in shade of blue. Some do appear black.
Is the range in shade from how much is stacked?

I can't seem to find the information that covers this in chickens anymore, sadly.
But this is how it is explained in pigeons.
I'm going to keep looking.

 

[Amer]

I think the blue gene reduces melanin production a little but the clumped pigment is what affects it the most.

 

[Leilukka]

It should not matter which one is the rooster or the hen, for any of those crosses.

And rather than mating a black x splash Andalusian and then breeding that offspring to an Ameraucana, you can save a step: just buy a blue Andalusian and breed to the Blue Ameraucana. Using a Blue Andalusian will let you check the quality of the lacing, which you cannot see on the black or splash birds.

To get blue chicks, you can do any combination of breeding black x splash (100% blue chicks), or blue x blue, or black x blue, or black x splash (each of those gives 50% blue chicks.) The blue gene in Ameraucanas is the same as the blue gene in Andalusians.

The only reason to use the Andalusians is to get better quality lacing in the blue birds. If you can find Blue Ameraucanas with nice black lacing, just use them and skip the Andalusians entirely.

Okay, thank you. I'll see if there is a black laced blue ameraucana and if there is, I'll just use that. Otherwise the blue andalaisian and blue ameraucana mated would work as you mentioned.

 

[Leilukka]

No.
It can be black.
From what I understand, the blue gene doesn't just make the feathers produce less eumelanin, it changes how the melanin is distributed.
Instead of the pigment being spread evenly over the bird, it is clustered and stacked, leaving areas of black and areas of white. The overall affect is grey.
IE: the grey areas in this comic. But this is at a microscopic level so you can't see the stacked pigments.
View attachment 3938117
The soft edges of feathers and the soft hackle feathers have a different structure so the pigment is structured differently as well, allowing black to show. Additionally, the Pattern and Melanotic genes can increase the amount of black at the edge of the feathers. (Pg was introduced to many Ameraucanas from Andalusians but due to it's linkage to the pea comb and blue egg genes I believe Ml was not.)

Very interesting. I was beginning to think with the other comments that our eyes were playing a trip on us with a dark blue colored lacing. The stacked grey sounds more likely.

 

[Leilukka]

I can't seem to find the information that covers this in chickens anymore, sadly.
But this is how it is explained in pigeons.
I'm going to keep looking.View attachment 3939778

Okay this makes sense how color is distributed. I like looking into the science. Back in the day, since I'm in my 40's now, I really loved the Genetics class in High School. It was my favorite subject and I'm excited to breed chickens. It will be neat to accomplish this goal. Thank you to everyone on this thread for all your tips on this subject.