Graphic: Help what do you think? Necroscopy Attempt

[Kiki]

No corn in the feed. No soy. Grumbly Farms food. View attachment 3580937

It's a whole grain type feed and not a pellet or crumble?

If so, I highly recommend switching to a pelleted or a crumbled feed because whole grain type feeds give the bird an option to pick and choose which of the grains they want to eat, which can lead to them not getting a balanced diet.
For example, if they chose to eat mostly just the sunflower seeds and the grubs they would be getting a high fat diet....way too much fat.

 

[jennaveewhit]

Can you post the full ingredient list? Soldier fly grubs as first ingredient worries me. I would be concerned that there's too much fat in the diet. Also, what do the whole grains consist of? Amid other questions. Looking for % protein, and % other ingredients.

 

[jennaveewhit]

It's a whole grain type feed and not a pellet or crumble?

If so, I highly recommend switching to a pelleted or a crumbled feed because whole grain type feeds give the bird an option to pick and choose which of the grains they want to eat, which can lead to them not getting a balanced diet.
For example, if they chose to eat mostly just the sunflower seeds and the grubs they would be getting a high fat diet....way too much fat.

I’m very thankful for your tips. I want to have them healthy and laying too.

 

[jennaveewhit]

Thank you for sharing this. So helpful to others of us that are learning as well

You’re welcome. It was not a fun thing to do but if I had to I definitely wanted to learn.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

That's more fat than I want to see, even in a female bird, but not way more fat. The intense yellow is likely due to the marigolds, and to lesser extent possibly some of the other ingredients they are using to spike the Omega threes.

It was my impression that the Grubblies Fresh Pecks layer was available as crumble or whole grain/pellet mix.

Full ingredient list here:
Wheat, peas, black soldier fly larvae, calcium carbonate, oats, barley, sunflower hearts, alfalfa meal, flaxseed, sunflower oil, calcium phosphate, molasses products, salt, L-lysine, DL-methionine, rice hulls, dried seaweed meal, hydrolyzed yeast, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, manganese proteinate, zinc proteinate, hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate, brewers dried yeast, vitamin E supplement, marigold extract, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, iron proteinate, yeast culture, niacin supplement, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, selenium yeast, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, calcium pantothenate, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, mineral oil, copper proteinate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity),riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin D-3 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B-supplement, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, folic acid, biotin, dried Bacillus licheniformis fermentation product, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product.

Guaranteed Nutriton Here:
Crude Protein............................................... 16.00% min
Lysine............................................................... 0.75% min
Methionine.................................................... 0.40% min
Crude Fat....................................................... 5.00% min
Crude Fiber................................................... 8.00% max
Calcium................................... 3.00% min – 4.00% max
Phosphorus.................................................... 0.55% min
Salt............................................. 0.25% min - 0.75% max
Omega 3 Fatty Acids.................................... 0.40% min

By the numbers, its not a bad feed (if expensive), everything is in the acceptable range for a "layer" formulation. I don't use layer formulations*, but plenty of people do.

I don't see any gross structural damage in the photos (do you have bigger photos, those are pretty tiny on my screen, even when I select them individually) - and I'm not seeing dried blood clearly (unless its in Pic 2 and 4), but that's often sign of hemhorrage internally, typically fatty liver, but can also bleed out from a reproductive issue. Coloration on some of the not yet developed eggs is pretty clearly off, my guess would be a reproductive tract problem of some sort - likely infectious agent.

The liver looks large and pale, but not irregular in color or "buttery", things I look for in high fat diets. How did it FEEL? whas it friable (crumbly)? or firm and smooth and very slightly elastic? Did you move the oveary around, look for evidence of rupture? Gall bladder looks a bit big too, but that may be an artifact of camera angle.

Sorry I can't be more help - at the moment, I'm in the nothing obvious camp, but I'd like to see larger photos, andget some feedback on how the organs "felt", if you handled them.

 

[jennaveewhit]

Sorry about the small pictures

That's more fat than I want to see, even in a female bird, but not way more fat. The intense yellow is likely due to the marigolds, and to lesser extent possibly some of the other ingredients they are using to spike the Omega threes.

It was my impression that the Grubblies Fresh Pecks layer was available as crumble or whole grain/pellet mix.

Full ingredient list here:
Wheat, peas, black soldier fly larvae, calcium carbonate, oats, barley, sunflower hearts, alfalfa meal, flaxseed, sunflower oil, calcium phosphate, molasses products, salt, L-lysine, DL-methionine, rice hulls, dried seaweed meal, hydrolyzed yeast, dried Aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, manganese proteinate, zinc proteinate, hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate, brewers dried yeast, vitamin E supplement, marigold extract, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, iron proteinate, yeast culture, niacin supplement, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, selenium yeast, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, calcium pantothenate, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, mineral oil, copper proteinate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity),riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin D-3 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B-supplement, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, folic acid, biotin, dried Bacillus licheniformis fermentation product, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product.

Guaranteed Nutriton Here:
Crude Protein............................................... 16.00% min
Lysine............................................................... 0.75% min
Methionine.................................................... 0.40% min
Crude Fat....................................................... 5.00% min
Crude Fiber................................................... 8.00% max
Calcium................................... 3.00% min – 4.00% max
Phosphorus.................................................... 0.55% min
Salt............................................. 0.25% min - 0.75% max
Omega 3 Fatty Acids.................................... 0.40% min

By the numbers, its not a bad feed (if expensive), everything is in the acceptable range for a "layer" formulation. I don't use layer formulations*, but plenty of people do.

I don't see any gross structural damage in the photos (do you have bigger photos, those are pretty tiny on my screen, even when I select them individually) - and I'm not seeing dried blood clearly (unless its in Pic 2 and 4), but that's often sign of hemhorrage internally, typically fatty liver, but can also bleed out from a reproductive issue. Coloration on some of the not yet developed eggs is pretty clearly off, my guess would be a reproductive tract problem of some sort - likely infectious agent.

The liver looks large and pale, but not irregular in color or "buttery", things I look for in high fat diets. How did it FEEL? whas it friable (crumbly)? or firm and smooth and very slightly elastic? Did you move the oveary around, look for evidence of rupture? Gall bladder looks a bit big too, but that may be an artifact of camera angle.

Sorry I can't be more help - at the moment, I'm in the nothing obvious camp, but I'd like to see larger photos, andget some feedback on how the organs "felt", if you handled them.

Let me try again. The liver and kidney’s felt smooth not crumbly thank you for your time and help

 

[Jasfarm]

You’re welcome. It was not a fun thing to do but if I had to I definitely wanted to learn.

I still have yet to and I’m dreading the day

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Sorry about the small pictures View attachment 3581086

Let me try again. The liver and kidney’s felt smooth not crumbly thank you for your time and help View attachment 3581084View attachment 3581085

Thanks, bigger pictures help. Yes, that's too much fat. the breaks in the liver, did those occur while opening the bird up (i.e. w/ tip of knife or while removing it?).

Fat on the heart isn't as heavy as I'd expect, given the condition of the rest of the internal cavity, so that's a positive.

Other than your layer feed, anything else the bird might be eating? Grubblies, on its own, doesn't really account for that fat level unless the bird is over eating.

 

[jennaveewhit]

Thanks, bigger pictures help. Yes, that's too much fat. the breaks in the liver, did those occur while opening the bird up (i.e. w/ tip of knife or while removing it?).

Fat on the heart isn't as heavy as I'd expect, given the condition of the rest of the internal cavity, so that's a positive.

Other than your layer feed, anything else the bird might be eating? Grubblies, on its own, doesn't really account for that fat level unless the bird is over eating.

Yes, I would say I probably give them to much food. Usually I make them some greens (lettuce or chopped cilantro or parsley) in the morning with a cucumber half and some BSF worms. Also if it’s really hot lately I’ll give them a watermelon slice or some frozen berries to peck. I’m probably the problem here but I’m not sure as I thought I could give some greens especially if I keep them in the coop and don’t let them into the yard. If I do let them out I don’t give extra greens. Is it completely unnecessary to have greens even in the winter or no grass conditions of the run? I will only stick with feed and oyster shell if that’s going to keep them healthy. It’s tough because I don’t know if fat was 100% the issue if the others are doing okay. Maybe feed was part of her troubles and the other part was something else? Still, so much info on the web about different feed and what’s good and bad and no clear cut “do this for best health” information. Some people say one thing some another. I’m trying and not sure I’m doing good enough. Almost feels like I’m failing…

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes, I would say I probably give them to much food. Usually I make them some greens (lettuce or chopped cilantro or parsley) in the morning with a cucumber half and some BSF worms. Also if it’s really hot lately I’ll give them a watermelon slice or some frozen berries to peck. I’m probably the problem here but I’m not sure as I thought I could give some greens especially if I keep them in the coop and don’t let them into the yard. If I do let them out I don’t give extra greens. Is it completely unnecessary to have greens even in the winter or no grass conditions of the run? I will only stick with feed and oyster shell if that’s going to keep them healthy. It’s tough because I don’t know if fat was 100% the issue if the others are doing okay. Maybe feed was part of her troubles and the other part was something else? Still, so much info on the web about different feed and what’s good and bad and no clear cut “do this for best health” information. Some people say one thing some another. I’m trying and not sure I’m doing good enough. Almost feels like I’m failing…

Look at my Sig.
Your learning.

There is no one right answer for everyone, there's only the best answer for you, under your circumstances, given you needs, and goals.

but I'd start by saving some money and cutting out the treat BSF worms. High protein, but also high fat. Birds are getting enough from their feed. Giving them greens is ok, not needed, but ok - they aren't a nutritionally desne source. Same with the cukes and watermelon - good electrolytes, mostly water, not really a concern.

People whose chickens suffer from dietary imbalance tend to have either A] chickens who over eat (Cx are bred for this, most other breeds do not - though individuals vary), B] offer nutritionally dense treats (BOSS, BSFL, dried Meal Worms, etc), or C] both.