Great Depression of 2016

[Dwkuska]

This is an interesting debate. Considering the size of the US it is surprising that it has managed to remain as one country for so long. That same land mass for example in Europe, would be comprised of many different independent nations with their own legislatures and very separate identities. We see what has happened in Eastern Europe with the political change and redefinition of countries and governments, and the western part of Russia which has gone the same way. Perhaps this could happen in the US? I wonder what the support for such a notion would be?

I agree its a good convo to have. The issue I see with this country being partitioned off is the country isnt really built for it. We have kind of specialized each state for a particular use. For instance each of the coasts is more directed towards import/export the states in the middle of the country are more directed at agriculture and industry. You might be able to cut the country into its respective quarters or in half other then that I just don't see it happening.

The western part of russia wasnt really russia's to begin with lol. Most of those countries were seized and then released in the last 100 years or so. Europe... well we all see how thats working for them.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

#1Welfare programs are generally funded by the fed through state agencies. And with the percentage of GA on federal un-employment and food assistance... ouch The fed does not create wealth, they take it from state just to give it back. What stops the state from running the same system?
#2 It is a requirement you be and prove your citizenship to collect SSI. No it is not. You have to to join the system but not to stay in it.. People from the US retire to countries all over the world an live the good life on SSI. Your road system I suspect is funded through the state which asks for subsidies from the fed. he fed does not create wealth, they take it from state just to give it back.
#3So your saying GA is going to become its own country and nobody is going to pay any form of taxes? I give 10yrs before GA looks like Ghana. Did not say that, we already pay taxes to the state. A state that is obligated to stay inside a budget..
#4 Which states are self sufficient? Does GA have enough of an economy to support itself and trade with the outside world? I know WA state has alot of exports but we import a hell of a lot of stuff too. The whole US has to import stuff so what does that have to do with anything?
#6 I would love to see where your getting your information. The use claim on waters extends quite a ways and GA unless it made its case to NATO would have no rights to waters. Nor do I suspect does GA have the ability to defend or inspect its harbors from terrorists or foreign nationals. The state has the ability to guard its coast an the US cant afford to attack merchant shipping anyway.. The US claim on the waters off the coast of Ga only stand as long as Ga is part of the US. The US can not attack its own people for trespassing an they also can not claim Ga is no longer part of the US but still claim its coast

You keep assuming Ga stands alone. 27 states sent reps to Mt Vernon to talk about doing what Ga is. I will try to get video of the debate on the Ga Senate floor. Spent all evening watching a hearing on state gun laws. I have to be in Albertville Al most of the day tomorrow an them back for more hearing so It may take a day or 2.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

This is an interesting debate. Considering the size of the US it is surprising that it has managed to remain as one country for so long. That same land mass for example in Europe, would be comprised of many different independent nations with their own legislatures and very separate identities. We see what has happened in Eastern Europe with the political change and redefinition of countries and governments, and the western part of Russia which has gone the same way. Perhaps this could happen in the US? I wonder what the support for such a notion would be?

People forget that every state we have is big enough to be its own country. Logistics is the only real issue. The mid west feeds New England an Alaska an Texas fuels most of our cities commutes. Lifestyles would have to change.

It will break apart. We have not been "One Nation" in many years. The only question is when an where the lines will be. I think most of the southeast is on the same page an would work together. Mid west may go with them or as its own group. The east coast could do fine as a group. New England on the other hand, I have no idea how they would handle a break up. It would be a mess.


Hard to say what kind of support something like this would have but what it has now is growing in this state anyway...

 

[rufus]

This talk of secession is off base. We have done that over 150 years ago. It didn't work.

Texas is probably the only state capable of taking on its portion of the national debt. When Texas was admitted to the union as the 28th state in 1846 some Texans thought the process was illegal, and therefore, they had the right to secession. In White vrs Texas in 1869 the court ruled that it couldn't. Secession was illegal.

The people of this country are so addicted to the opium of social welfare, they will not tolerate a system than will make them return to self reliance.

An amendment to the constitution sounds nice, but it would just be ignored just as the basic constitution is ignored now days. Rule by fiat or presidential decree will be the norm.

A return to sound monetary policy will be the only way out after the necessary hyper inflation. The government needs to print a lot of money just to pay the interest on the national debt. There is no way out of it other than a national bankruptcy. We can't pay enough taxes to pay the interest, let alone the principle.

With a ruined currency will come disorder. Those used to living off the labor of others will not be happy when their food stamp system collapses. Those people will not be denied. The Watts riots will appear to be a Sunday School picnic in comparison.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Yeah, good luck with that. Take a look at the "red" states most often accusing the federal government of "robbing" them through federal taxes. Then look at the states receiving the most in federal funding. More often than not, they are the same. And much of the southeast receives 2-3X as much federal funding as they collect in federal taxes. On their own, they'd be our third-world neighbors. The data is out there if you look for it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sta...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Being in a net-contributing "blue" state, if some of you get your "red" states to "leave" the union, the union would probably be better off for it. But we want all our states to stay together, like the big, crazy, dysfunctional family we are. Everyone's got their own version of "crazy cousin Cleetus" and we all learn to ignore his rants and keep inviting him to Thanksgiving dinner every year, anyway -- even if we get hit up for yet another loan in the process.

 

[Rosa moschata]

This talk of secession is off base. We have done that over 150 years ago. It didn't work.

Texas is probably the only state capable of taking on its portion of the national debt. When Texas was admitted to the union as the 28th state in 1846 some Texans thought the process was illegal, and therefore, they had the right to secession. In White vrs Texas in 1869 the court ruled that it couldn't. Secession was illegal.

The people of this country are so addicted to the opium of social welfare, they will not tolerate a system than will make them return to self reliance.

An amendment to the constitution sounds nice, but it would just be ignored just as the basic constitution is ignored now days. Rule by fiat or presidential decree will be the norm.

A return to sound monetary policy will be the only way out after the necessary hyper inflation. The government needs to print a lot of money just to pay the interest on the national debt. There is no way out of it other than a national bankruptcy. We can't pay enough taxes to pay the interest, let alone the principle.

With a ruined currency will come disorder. Those used to living off the labor of others will not be happy when their food stamp system collapses. Those people will not be denied. The Watts riots will appear to be a Sunday School picnic in comparison.

Everyone seems so fixated on "social" welfare that they don't realize "corporate" welfare costs more money. Perhaps I could paraphrase (and correct the typo in) your sentence as below:

"The corporations of this country are so addicted to the opium of corporate welfare, they will not tolerate a system that will make them return to self reliance."

http://thinkbynumbers.org/governmen...fare-statistics-vs-social-welfare-statistics/

Perhaps we should just cut corporate welfare, and use the same money toward improving our infrastructure, creating jobs in the process. That would put more money in the pockets of consumers, drive producers to produce, thereby increasing jobs even more. But poor and unemployed people can't afford lobbyists, so I guess that's just a pipe dream.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

This talk of secession is off base. We have done that over 150 years ago. It didn't work.

Texas is probably the only state capable of taking on its portion of the national debt. When Texas was admitted to the union as the 28th state in 1846 some Texans thought the process was illegal, and therefore, they had the right to secession. In White vrs Texas in 1869 the court ruled that it couldn't. Secession was illegal.

Secession was working around 1863. The north had though they would destroy the much weaker south in weeks but by 1863 the south had broken the backs of the north. The south was starving but the north had given up. Then the north had a victory at Gettysburg. The President, who never planned to free any slaves, took the opportunity to make a speech. What he said was meaningless in reality but it made people think they were fighting for a new goal. The north rallied behind the new goal an at the same time the countries backing the south pulled out cause they could not be seen fighting for slavery. A moral issue turned the war. Today the US does not have a monopoly of power in just a few states so making any states that tried to leave stay would be much harder. An there is no slavery cause to rally the people behind.

The SCOTUS has never really did its job anyway. Before the war everyone pretty well knew that secession was legal. After the war the SCOTUS had no choice but to declare secession illegal to justify the war. The courts have been the the feds pocket ever sense. You can find a lot of quotes from the judges about how they traditionally try to stay out of the way an let the fed do what they want.


As for the national debt, I dont think it will play out like a divorce. Everyone will not take a share. It will be more like a bad date. One will climb out the window an the other will be left holding the check with no money to pay it...

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Yeah, good luck with that. Take a look at the "red" states most often accusing the federal government of "robbing" them through federal taxes. Then look at the states receiving the most in federal funding. More often than not, they are the same. And much of the southeast receives 2-3X as much federal funding as they collect in federal taxes. On their own, they'd be our third-world neighbors. The data is out there if you look for it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sta...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Being in a net-contributing "blue" state, if some of you get your "red" states to "leave" the union, the union would probably be better off for it. But we want all our states to stay together, like the big, crazy, dysfunctional family we are. Everyone's got their own version of "crazy cousin Cleetus" and we all learn to ignore his rants and keep inviting him to Thanksgiving dinner every year, anyway -- even if we get hit up for yet another loan in the process.

I wont disagree on most of this but this is a topic all its own that I wont get in to as it would take days. I dont have an R or a D by my name anyway... Most people dont.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Based on the rants posted here about how bad things seem to be, it seems ironic that there's such dissent for the left for daring to speak out for the struggling. We're not speaking out merely for "them" but for "you" as well. When welfare pays better than 40 hours a week at minimum wage, the problem isn't that welfare is available. The problem is that the minimum wage is too low. And considering that CEO bonuses don't seem to feel the effects of the recession to nearly the same degree as the jobs lower down, it's all the more appalling that corporations "unable to compete" without subsidies and tax credits keep paying them -- while also claiming the need to make cutbacks to maintain profit. The real "welfare queens" have 7+ figure annual incomes, and pay lower average tax rates than the working class.

Yet so many of the struggling continue to vote against their own self-interests, favoring politicians promising tax breaks for the "job creators." Those "job creators" have been getting successive tax breaks for over 30 years. Where are the jobs? Unless, of course, the jobs you anticipate them "creating" are domestic help for their multiple homes.

I think it's time to go back to bottom-up economics -- it worked splendidly before.

 

[rufus]

Rosa, you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Please define the corporate welfare that you find objectionable. If it is something we can pin down, we could address the issue with our senators and representatives in Washington. Crying about it on this website will do nothing. But we need to be specific.

Remember, those corporations provide the goods and services we need. Destroying or crippling that supply network can have unintended effects.

I read a blog you may find interesting. It is "Generacion Y." It is translated by a member of the exile community. Look for it as "Generation Y." It is written by a young woman in Cuba. She writes by necessity in a circumspect manner, but you will get the idea.