Help needed customizing low estrogen and gluten free feed

[badgeroo]

This is going to be difficult and probably expensive.

Because of my wife's serious illness, she has to avoid all estrogen mimicking foods, including soy and flaxseed. Yes, this applies to eggs from soy fed chickens too. We tried and checked that.

Because of mine and my kids gluten sensitivity, we have to avoid all gluten foods and that unfortunately applies to eggs. We can no longer eat our own eggs and have verified this particular sensitivity via IGG tests. Folks who buy our eggs love them. I can't stand them

For the past 5-6 years I have been feeding our flock of 15-60 chickens (depending on particular year) a non-GMO feed sold in nearby Amish community store. But then our health problems started and I actually looked at the label for the first time. And of course, soy is the #1 ingredient.

Owner of the store is willing to customize as small as a 1/4 pallet batch of feed for me and gave me the list of available ingredients (all organic and obviously non-GMO). Unfortunately, from that list only peas have more than 16% protein and I recall watching Justin Rhodes video suggesting that peas cannot make more than 10% of total recipe. Don't remember why.

Here is what I can use (that to my best knowledge doesn't mimick estrogen and is gluten free):
- ground corn
- kelp granules
- ground oats
- peas
- ground whole sunflower seeds
- fish meal
- enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

I use corn in a deer feeder 3-4 times a day at 2 seconds run to activate the flock and have them go out and forage. Not sure about having it in the feed, especially in the summer.

I have read varying suggestions on amount of kelp. It's expensive. 4-5% max?

Oats are pretty high in fat, so can't go crazy with it, right? Unfortunately I don't have another choice.

Peas - is 10% max correct? Using this mill/store, I have to use way more than 10%.

Ground sunflower seeds - fairly high in protein but crazy high in fat

Fish meal - I was told 5% max, to avoid fishy egg smell, while having best possible omega 3's. Also, very, very expensive

Enzyme supplement - it would only be 1lb per 750lb batch, not sure about the price yet.

Is it doable using this list?

Here is the best I can do:
~5% kelp granules
~54% ground oats
~33% peas
~2% ground whole sunflower seeds
~5% fish meal
~1% enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

I have free choice oyster shells and grit always available, along with fresh water.

Adds up to about 17.6% protein and just under 4% of fat, at about $24 per 50lb bag, but before mixing and bagging fee. That's it. No soy mash, no flax, no oils. But it seems that a lot of ingredients present in commercial feeds are missing.

What say you? I appreciate all help here.

 

[Sally PB]

@U_Stormcrow, can you help with this?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormcrow, can you help with this?

I can. Either after lunch or after work. and with certain warnings and caveats.

1) I'm not an allergist.
2) Some of what OP has set forth is contrary to my understanding of the published research
3) Sunflowers are high in phytoestrogens.

But accepting the representations as true, yes, I'll stick this in a calculator - need to know which kelp meal, and which fish meal they intend to use, there's a lot of variation in the market - see what comes out, make some recommends. Also, which peas??

 

[ChickyCh00k]

New Country Organics offers a wheat-free layer feed, and I believe all of their products are soy-free. Might be worth checking them out if Stormcrow finds any inadequacies in your recipe.

https://www.newcountryorganics.com/layer-feed-wheat-free-soy-free-40-pounds.html

 

[badgeroo]

1) It's not an allergy.

2) Empirical evidence beats published research. I really would like to avoid a discussion on this. It is what it is.

3) You are correct, I actually found little more info about it last night, when I finally had some time to look into phytoestrogens.

So sunflower seeds are out...

Here is updated recipe sans sunflower seed (with values I am using), for your critique:

~5% kelp granules (8%p - 0%f)
~56% ground oats (11%p - 4%f)
~33% peas (23%p - 1.4%f)
~5% fish meal (65%p - 9%f)
~1% enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

Resulting in about 17.5% protein and 3.2% fat, at about $23.60 per 50# bag, before mixing and bagging fees.

(BTW, nutritional goal is at least 17.5% protein and 3% fat. I can increase the fat in the winter for dosing more corn from the deer feeder or feeding scratch corn)

I will try to get some more solid info about the actual ingredients they offer, although it might be hard to get verified value numbers. I also plan to stop at another mill to check what they can mix for me and if at all.

Thanks for New Country Organics link. Looks pretty good, except for flaxseed and vegetable oils. Probably the best commercial feed I have seen so far. I am still uneducated on how much phytoestrogens is in alfalfa and some other foods.

I wonder how palatable it is for chickens, not being ground. I feed my chickens using layer mash in large garbage bin with 3" PVC elbows mounted through the holes and pointed down to the bottom of the bin (couple inches from the bottom) - I think there are 5 or 6 of them in 30gal bin. They can't see what they eat, so hopefully larger pieces would be ok (that could be otherwise avoided).

 

[Kenya Mwangi]

1) It's not an allergy.

2) Empirical evidence beats published research. I really would like to avoid a discussion on this. It is what it is.

3) You are correct, I actually found little more info about it last night, when I finally had some time to look into phytoestrogens.

So sunflower seeds are out...

Here is updated recipe sans sunflower seed (with values I am using), for your critique:

~5% kelp granules (8%p - 0%f)
~56% ground oats (11%p - 4%f)
~33% peas (23%p - 1.4%f)
~5% fish meal (65%p - 9%f)
~1% enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement

Resulting in about 17.5% protein and 3.2% fat, at about $23.60 per 50# bag, before mixing and bagging fees.

(BTW, nutritional goal is at least 17.5% protein and 3% fat. I can increase the fat in the winter for dosing more corn from the deer feeder or feeding scratch corn)

I will try to get some more solid info about the actual ingredients they offer, although it might be hard to get verified value numbers. I also plan to stop at another mill to check what they can mix for me and if at all.

Thanks for New Country Organics link. Looks pretty good, except for flaxseed and vegetable oils. Probably the best commercial feed I have seen so far. I am still uneducated on how much phytoestrogens is in alfalfa and some other foods.

I wonder how palatable it is for chickens, not being ground. I feed my chickens using layer mash in large garbage bin with 3" PVC elbows mounted through the holes and pointed down to the bottom of the bin (couple inches from the bottom) - I think there are 5 or 6 of them in 30gal bin. They can't see what they eat, so hopefully larger pieces would be ok (that could be otherwise avoided).

Hello I think this is exciting. I am interested in your final product.

 

[saysfaa]

Alfalfa was the first thing I checked. It has phytoestrogen. So do clovers.

Is your feed store willing to add other options if you supply them?

Or you could feed some things alongside the milled feed and adjust the milled ration accordingly.

If so, you might consider:
Buckwheat
Red sorghum
Quinoa

Potatoes
Carrots
Squash

Please confirm for yourself whether any are safe for your wife.

And screenshots of research papers about levels of estrogenic compounds in fruits and vegetables. I thought they might be helpful.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

My allergy comment was regard the gluten avoidance, mostly.

Plenty of both research and experience shows that people with celiac's disease can eat chickens *and their eggs* fed wheat and wheat products without issue. OTOH, they may not (depending upon the severity of their condition) be able to handle the chicken's wheat containing feed, and almost certainly should not be mixing it themselves.

Re: soy, things get very complicated. Since some soy isolates* DO make it to the egg (in detectable, though generally not clinically significant quantities), though not complete soy proteins. Unfortunately, essentially all legumes, most seeds, and even some grains have relatively high phytoestrogen content.

It makes things "difficult" to formulate a reasonably priced complete chicken feed when taking out whole classes or vegetable products, including those with the highest crude protien/pound ratios, and some of your best plant based Met sources. Things would have been much easier if it was a specific soy isolate thate needed to be avoided, rather than phytoestrogens generally.

My condolonces w/ regard your family's diagnosis.

Do you have the Crude Protein Fat Fiber, Ca, P or your fish meal and kelp meal yet? Also, any idea what kind of peas they are using?

[EDIT: *Wrong word. More coffee. Soy Isolates has a specific meaning apart from the use those words might be assigned in normal speach. Insert "identifiable fragments of certain soy proteins" here. Thank you for understanding.]

 

[NatJ]

It makes things "difficult" to formulate a reasonably priced complete chicken feed when taking out whole classes or vegetable products, including those with the highest crude protien/pound ratios, and some of your best plant based Met sources. Things would have been much easier if it was a specific soy isolate thate needed to be avoided, rather than phytoestrogens generally.

I wonder if meat could be used as a protein source? I have no idea about estrogen content there, and unfortunately meat tends to be more expensive than soy and the other common high-protein legumes, so it would definitely call for a bit of research.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I wonder if meat could be used as a protein source? I have no idea about estrogen content there, and unfortunately meat tends to be more expensive than soy and the other common high-protein legumes, so it would definitely call for a bit of research.

https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)40459-6/fulltext

Picograms - its not much. Certainly less than the phytoestrogen levels of some plants.

But you are right, generally not cost effective. OP is already looking to use fish meal as an animal protein source (and can go up to 10% with most not commenting on a perceptible "fishy" odor or taste component - see Justin Rhodes' recipe as example - though the industry recommendation is currently not more than 5%), but has already noted its expensive. Beef is around 75-80% water, so that 80/20 ungraded roast is really only around 16% protein by weight, and likely $6/lb...