Help needed customizing low estrogen and gluten free feed

[U_Stormcrow]

Are you sure on 10% fish meal? Yes, it's expensive but it might be cheaper to do x amount of fish meal vs 4x amount of something else, for the same end result in protein %

Yes, I'm certain that's the reported recipe, and that a lot of people use it successfully. I'm also certain that the recommend in the business (because one of BYC's posters whom I respect on this topic* does this as a day job) is 5% or less (and attempting to move away from it entirely) - but inclusion rates up to 10% have been used successfully without complaint of "fishy flavor" or the like.

That said, I haven't used the recipe personally, and even if I had, for reasons not important here, I have almost no sense of taste - so any opinion of mine based on first hand experience would be worthless.

*no I won't name names. They don't finish working and come here only to be tasked with working for free. But they do occasionally share kernels of industry knowledge and I quickly sweep those into my collection of sometimes useful tidbits.

 

[badgeroo]

Field Peas, thank you. That means cow peas, purple hulled, black eyed, etc. Things usually cooked southern -style and creamy, not winter peas, etc. Makes a big significant difference in the AAs and the allowed inclusion rates.

What are the protein and fat numbers that you have for field peas?

 

[badgeroo]

Yes, I'm certain that's the reported recipe, and that a lot of people use it successfully. I'm also certain that the recommend in the business (because one of BYC's posters whom I respect on this topic* does this as a day job) is 5% or less (and attempting to move away from it entirely) - but inclusion rates up to 10% have been used successfully without complaint of "fishy flavor" or the like.

That said, I haven't used the recipe personally, and even if I had, for reasons not important here, I have almost no sense of taste - so any opinion of mine based on first hand experience would be worthless.

*no I won't name names. They don't finish working and come here only to be tasked with working for free. But they do occasionally share kernels of industry knowledge and I quickly sweep those into my collection of sometimes useful tidbits.

Thanks for confirming this. I will change the fish meal ratio to 10%.

What's the highest number you would use for kelp?

 

[saysfaa]

Apologies ...

No worries.

I know nothing about sorghum and egg laying or any other impact. I'll try to find out but don't wait for me; I don't when I can work on it.

It may be worth lower egg production to get an ingredient that works for your wife. It may be that adjusting something else in the ingredients or the form of the sorghum or its variety would have less impact on the egg laying. Fermenting, for example, frequently changes what enzymes are needed in the digestive system.

I meant feeding potatoes as part of the chickens' diet.

I totally sympathize with the whole ordeal part. We were trying to find food as low in potassium as possible due to stage 4/5 kidney disease. Very little was too much and risked heart attack but the alternative is not eating enough. The "low potassium" lists tend to be "low" because the serving size was so small not because whatever it was actually didn't have much. Among other frustrations in the search.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

What are the protein and fat numbers that you have for field peas?

Field Peas (not corrected for water content)
25.5% CP, 5.6% fiber, 1.6% fat. Key AAs .357 Met, 1.76 Lys, .969 Thr, .28 Tryp. 13.4 MJ/kg. Correcvting for water content reduces those roughly 10%.

Due to antinutritional elements (tannins, trypsins mostly) generally recommended not to exceed 15% of feed by weight.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thanks for confirming this. I will change the fish meal ratio to 10%.

What's the highest number you would use for kelp?

Kelp is usually included for trace minerals, can be relatively high in both calcium and salt. I don't have a hard rule written down for it, but I can't recall ever seeing it used in excess of 5%. As it is low protein, only around 7.2-8%, so the more you include, the harder it is to reach other targets.

 

[badgeroo]

Kelp is usually included for trace minerals, can be relatively high in both calcium and salt. I don't have a hard rule written down for it, but I can't recall ever seeing it used in excess of 5%. As it is low protein, only around 7.2-8%, so the more you include, the harder it is to reach other targets.

Thank you. I have seen 5% too, so that's what I had in the calculation. Here are updated numbers. More than 2/3 of the reciple are oats (and have to be, at least in Amish store scenario, which is also all non-GMO and organic ingredients)

Amish store:
~5% kelp granules (8%p - 0%f)
~70% ground oats (11%p - 4%f)
~15% field peas (25.5%p - 1.6%f)
~10% fish meal (65%p - 9%f)
~1% enzyme/mineral/electrolyte supplement
Resulting in about 18.45% protein and 3.9% fat, at about $24.12 per 50# bag, before mixing and bagging fees (based on the mill prices that would be about $28 per #50lb bag, out of the door).

Now, I want to see what the local mill can do too and be able to choose. Since they claim they can get anything, I first want to give them a list and see what quality it would be as well as price, but I have to start with my own list.

Following the millet suggestion, I found that pearl millet is a non-gluten grain that has a lot of good nutrients, but I can't find any good info about amount of phytoestrogens in it.

What other ingredients should I consider? In the current reciple, the fat numbers are a bit high and although I would love to have as high protein numbers as possible, there is room for other stuff. Is there a point adding calcium while they have free access to oyster shells? What else? Please brainstorm with me.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Oh, there's LOTS or research on Sorghum. I'll need to dig it back out. Its one of the few grains I can (theoretically) grow on my soils (reality has not been so accommodating). For reasons not yet figured out, it performs better than its crude numbers suggest. Its no miracle, mind you, but based on low CP and anti-nutritionals it should be a lousy ingredient. Instead, its a passable substitute for some amount of corn.

Speculation is it brings some useful enzyme(s) to the party.

 

[badgeroo]

Oh, there's LOTS or research on Sorghum. I'll need to dig it back out. Its one of the few grains I can (theoretically) grow on my soils (reality has not been so accommodating). For reasons not yet figured out, it performs better than its crude numbers suggest. Its no miracle, mind you, but based on low CP and anti-nutritionals it should be a lousy ingredient. Instead, its a passable substitute for some amount of corn.

Speculation is it brings some useful enzyme(s) to the party.

Yes, the enzyme part is suspect per what I have found so far. I am skipping corn as ingredient and only use it as bait/snack in very small amounts per chicken.

What else should I consider that brings the good enzymes and nutrition to the table?

 

[saysfaa]

... Is there a point adding calcium while they have free access to oyster shells?

No. At least not the extra calcium that layers need - a feed mix may have some calcium because every animal needs some.

I figure since chick feed and layer feed are the same price (as they are where I get it). And oyster shells are less expensive than the feed then if I get layer feed instead of chick feed and oyster shell, I am paying feed prices for the calcium instead of oyster shell prices.

Besides, some hens lay more eggs than others so some need more than others. Not enough difference to worry about feeding layer feed to all the hens but I feel better.

I also feed a layer mix sometimes because it is easier for my chicken sitters.