How to tell legitimate puppy ads from scammers and puppy mill ads.

[Finnie]

I know a chicken forum may not be the best place to ask this, but this is the best forum I know, with a lot of participation by people from all walks of life. So I thought I could get opinions from other animal people here. Dog forums can be tricky to navigate...

I'm also not trying to start a debate over the merits of breeding vs adopting from a shelter. That is a moot point here. I am looking at a specific dog breed, and I'm not interested in buying from a show breeder. I want pet quality, but not from a mill. I'm happy to support a reasonable hobby breeder. That point is not up for debate. My concerns are about how do you evaluate if someone advertising is on the up and up, or flat out lying to you.

Two specific questions are:

1. If they insist that because they are a single mom living alone with small daughters, they do not allow any visitors to their home. They will only deliver the puppy or meet you in public. It sounds fishy to me, but is this ever a legitimate claim?

2. If this single mom says she supplements her income by listing puppies for friends and relatives who are not computer savvy, and they give her a percentage of their sales for this service, could that be true, or just a slick way to cover up the fact that there are ads for 10 different dog breeds, under different people, that were obviously written by one person? For this reason alone, I was ready to write her off as a dishonest seller. But when she explained about doing the computer work for people she knows, I wondered if there could be some truth there. Do people actually do that? For real? I find it hard to believe, and yet sort of plausible.

Perhaps I am just too gullible and willing to give people the benefit of a doubt. Her writing is intelligent, and I spoke with her father on the phone, who told me he helps her with all the work and she does the selling. He was very polite and sounded honest. But that could be me, just being willing to believe that people are nice. Then I talk to my daughter about all the things he told me, and she puts a negative spin on everything, so I start to think, Man, he's a really GOOD liar!

They did give me their vet reference, and I plan to check on that Monday morning, but really, his clients are his bread and butter, so I doubt that he would badmouth a client. Not really sure just how to go about asking her vet about her in a proper manner.

BTW, the photos in the ad show a lively, healthy, very happy puppy. You can see that they eyes are clean and clear and with proper expression for the breed. They are not stolen from the internet. In fact, all of her ads have photos taken in a similar manner, and I don't think anyone could steal that many good quality poses of that many puppies. That she did the photography herself I believe. It is the fact that the puppy looks so healthy and happy, that gives me the one hope that this lady could be telling me the truth. Of course, there is always the possibility that I get to the meeting and the dog is no longer in the same shape, or even the same dog, and in that case, the jig would be up and I would walk away.

Honestly, I could just walk away now. But when I find the next ad with potential, and the next and the next, how do I tell the truly honest breeders from the really good liars? This puppy has the potential to be healthy and sound, and I could turn it down on some technicalities about the seller, and then go out and buy from someone else without those technicalities, and end up with a sickly, poor quality puppy down the road.

If anybody is still actually reading at this point, bless your heart! Does anyone know if my two questions should be deal-breakers? Thanks so much!

 

[GitaBooks]

I'll try to answer your questions in order. I'm no expert, but we have owned some 11 or so dogs over the years

Breeding vs adopting from a shelter: I love adopting from a shelter, unfortunately, we are allergic to dog and need to get poodle mixes, which are hard to find at shelters. Tons of breeders are awesome, unfortunately, lots of breeders are bad and many owners (many not to blame) have to give up their dogs. Breeders are necessary to keep dogs friendly, healthy, and thriving. However, I think everyone should adopt a dog from a shelter who can.

Question one: It probably isn't. People should not be breeding dogs if they can't invite people to come see how they are kept. Even if they are good people, they should not be in the breeding business if they can't at least show pictures of how the dogs are kept, fed, exercised, ect.

2: I doubt that she would know that many people who breed dogs, especially that many who don't know how to use a computer. People do help others on the computer, but again, they should be posting pictures of the living conditions, showing different houses and yards.

Ask them for evidence of good living conditions, even if they don't want to be in the pictures. Ask for evidence of vaccinations, ask them what they feed their dogs, how often they exercise them. Adds that have poor-quality pictures of too young puppies and aren't proud to show of their dogs probably don't have them in the best of conditions, or else don't have the time (in which case they shouldn't be selling dogs).

A good breeder who knows what they are doing (some backyard breeders have good intentions but don't do it right) will not sell a puppy that is too young and won't sell a puppy without asking questions to you, such as how you plan to take care of their puppy and to make sure you plan to get it fixed and exercise it and feed it properly.

I really love to support small time breeders as well, and I would love to fall for everyone and believe they are all good people. However, we have seen the effects of puppy-mills first hand. A dog that has no idea how to behave right because of being taken from its mother too young. A dog sold for an incredibly high price with a "small cold" that suffered pneumonia. A dog bred badly enough to suffer from hot-spots all his life.


I really hope this helps. Best of luck finding the puppy of your dreams!

Our four goldendoodles (both minis and standards) . Arby and Rax (the larger, older pair, which are brothers) came from a good breeder. They were covered in ticks, but healthy, friendly, and were inexpensive because they were sold at an older age. They were well behaved from having been with their mother for a while. Being hybrids, it was not the fault of the breeders themselves that they suffered from terrible arthritis (this is the fault of the people who inbred golden retrievers).
The minis were sold too young, but had the older bros to help raise them. They had good pictures of them and the only reason we met with them instead of going to the farm was because they lived so far away. They are very healthy and friendly.
Our three other dogs we all got from pet stores and are the ones that suffer from health problems, as I'm sure they all came from legal puppy-mills due to them being sold so young and having health problems (soy allergies, seizures, hot-spots). Otherwise, they are friendly, wonderful dogs as well.

 

[MakelaNJoe]

i dont breed dogs but i did have an accidental liter with my own dogs and had to go through the process of finding them good loving homes.

i am a stay at home mother with two toddlers and i had people come to my house to look at puppies thier environment the parents etc. i dont believe this is good reasons not to let you at her house like you said her father helps maybe he could be there at the time you are.

i have listed things online for others a car a couch etc but never multiple liter of dogs this seems alttle fishy to me...

i wouldnt call it off but explain that you are interested in meeting the parents of the puppy and seeing the behavior and demeanor of the dogs before acquiring him/her any respectable person looking for good homes for their dogs will understand your concern and try to make you as comfortable as possible in your decision!

 

[drumstick diva]

There are just too many red flags with this person. I would run from seller and find some decent people to buy from. I used to breed and show dogs many years ago. The parents were always brought out to show size, personality, looks etc.
Or if the litter was from a stud across the country, I would bring out the mother.

I would not let puppies leave till they had their shots because I couldn't always depend on the new owners to continue with the series. My pups were trimmed and bathed, nails cut, ears cleaned etc. Depending on age they were lead trained and starting house training. I always explained why a particular dog was pet quality. I encouraged them to take the dog to a vet to assure themselves that it was in healthy condition.

My niece got a shelter dog and he came loaded so badly with ticks, she found them crawling her walls the next morning. She had him treated at a vet and her house had to be fumigated. That was the least of his problems. He was allergic to many things, he was afraid of everything, it's only now that he is an elderly dog that he has settled down. She had dogs from breeders before and didn't have a problem

My sister got a dog from the same shelter, they let him go before he was even evaluated.I could not list all the problems he has had and continues to have. She has had great expense in having dog trainers work with him with but, continues to have major lapses at home. My sister also has had previous dogs from breeders with no major issues.

I would shun newspaper or online ads for dogs. Too many ads will be "chowpoos" or some other version of mixed breeds which the seller will claim is a "designer breed." Mainly the ads will have prices $ 500-$ 1000 or so. So people assume these are valuable dogs. The only designer feature is the outrageous price.

If you have a chance at all go to a dog show (not county or state fair,) a REAL dog show where you can observe the breeds, talk to the owners, and see what the dogs are like with many strangers around them. Show breeders always have some pet stock from their top bloodlines - they have flaws that make them unsuitable for show but, not for being a loveable pet. They have the stock checked for whatever inherited defects the breed is prone too. And have proof of the results.

 

[Finnie]

Question one: It probably isn't. People should not be breeding dogs if they can't invite people to come see how they are kept. Even if they are good people, they should not be in the breeding business if they can't at least show pictures of how the dogs are kept, fed, exercised, ect.


2: I doubt that she would know that many people who breed dogs, especially that many who don't know how to use a computer. People do help others on the computer, but again, they should be posting pictures of the living conditions, showing different houses and yards.

Ask them for evidence of good living conditions, even if they don't want to be in the pictures.

It did cross my mind that since she won't let me go there, maybe she could send me some photos of her dog areas.

She told me the people she lists for are

her father
one friend of his (both are older people)
her sister-in-law

But I also found a fourth breeder name.

 

[Finnie]

i am a stay at home mother with two toddlers and i had people come to my house to look at puppies thier environment the parents etc. i dont believe this is good reasons not to let you at her house like you said her father helps maybe he could be there at the time you are.

i have listed things online for others a car a couch etc but never multiple liter of dogs this seems alttle fishy to me...

Yeah, I wondered if listing for other people is a legitimate activity. If it were, then it would make a lot of sense that they would be listed under the real breeder's name and not hers. But she does it both ways. She listed her dad's friends puppy under the same registered user account that her own puppies were with, but other people got their own name and account. It has the sound of a convenient explanation that can cover over any slip ups she might make, or any discrepancies I might find.


i wouldnt call it off but explain that you are interested in meeting the parents of the puppy and seeing the behavior and demeanor of the dogs before acquiring him/her any respectable person looking for good homes for their dogs will understand your concern and try to make you as comfortable as possible in your decision!

She definitely writes back in a polite friendly way understanding my concerns. She did give me the name of her vet, and the puppy will come with his shot record and a one year health guarantee. I hadn't planned on actually calling the vet, but now that visiting her home is right out, I will not only talk to the vet, but I plan to ask her if she can provide references from previous buyers so I can talk to them as well. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be her "sister-in-law".

One thing her father told me over the phone, was that they don't like to send out photos of the parents because they get a lot of calls from scammers and they first question they ask is for photos of the parents, and then the next thing you know, they are stealing the photos to use in their scam ads. But he did say he would ask the daughter if she could send me photos of the parents, since he could tell that I was asking all the right questions and he was sure I was not a scammer. I will have to insist on those, now that a home visit is out.

 

[Finnie]

There are just too many red flags with this person. I would run from seller and find some decent people to buy from.

I would shun newspaper or online ads for dogs.

I think I agree with you and the other posters about the red flags. Especially after taking a step back to make this thread, and seeing the facts a little more objectively.

I'm not so sure shunning all on line ads is the way to go. I think there are a lot of decent hobby breeders who would use the internet, but it's hard to sift them out from amongst all the bad apples.

And nowadays, newspaper ads are so expensive and practically obsolete. Our paper has a smattering of them, but I don't really even look there.

Thank you all for the helpful feedback!

 

[dainerra]

"polite and friendly" "intelligent" and "knowledgeable" don't mean that someone isn't a scammer. To be honest, how could you be a scammer if you weren't at least the first 3 of those (or could play it on tv)?

what breed of dog are you looking for? step one to finding a responsible breeder is doing your own homework. go to http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/breeds.html click on your breed and read the recommended health tests. If the breeder isn't doing the "required" ones and willing to show you documented proof which you can often verify yourself at www.offa.org, run the other way. And read the actual breed standard for the breed you are interested in. If a breeder is purposely breeding dogs that are outside that standard - size, color, temperament and especially if they advertise them as "rare" or "better" than dogs bred to standard - then run away. If you like dogs that are outside the standard in size, well they pop up from time to time in well-bred dogs. Same goes for color. Or go to a rescue.

then look at price. check out breed specific groups and find out what the average price is in your breed and then in your area. I'm into GSDs. Average price for a working line dog is $1200. In my area, many breeders charge $900-$1000 because, hey, this is Arkansas. If I see someone listing pups for $300, I know that they likely haven't done any of the necessary work to prove that their dogs are healthy.

Then talk to the breeder. Some prefer email for first contact and then set up a time to chat on the phone later. The breeder should ask you more questions than your last job interview. They should want to know what experience you have with dogs in general. What experience you have with the breed (a bit less likely if you are looking at toys or lapdog breeds). What is your training philosophy. How do you plan to housetrain the pup. Vet references (breeders should be asking YOU for vet references, not offering to let you call theirs). They should ask about the people living in the home, how many and ages. If everyone is on the same page with wanting a dog. If children have experience being around dogs. Do you have a fenced yard. Do you rent or own (if rent does your landlord know you are getting a dog. Some will require written proof.).
All of these might not be asked by your breeder. Some aren't asked at all, the breeder simply works the conversation around so that you talk about it - the best way to get honest answers from a potential buyer.

Then the breeder should be able to answer, if you ask, why you paired this stud with this female. What they expect the pups to be like. If working breed or larger breed dogs, they should ask questions so that they can match the best dog to your home. Again, in toy breeds this can be less important, depending on the particular breed but they want to make sure that the high energy pup isn't going to go to a home with a frazzled mother with 3 toddlers.

No, a responsible breeder isn't likely to be offering to list pups for that many people. They may occasionally refer buyers to another breeder if they don't have a litter or none of the pups are a good match. Or they may list pups on their site that they co-own, own the stud dog, or are somehow connected to.
Newspapers, online ads, etc arent' generally places that responsible breeders will advertise.

If you call her vet, all the vet can tell you is if she is a client.


With the new laws at teh dept of Agriculture, selling a single pup without the buyer visiting your home at least once and you own more than 4 females (of any species) that are capable of being bred, you have to be licensed by the Dept. of Ag. Being a licensed breeder is not a good thing 99.999% of the time. Some state or local laws may vary on who needs licensed but needing a national inspection or in most cases even through the state, means that they produce a high volume of dogs.

Having more than one breed of dog is a yellow flag. It takes a lot of work and study to responsibly breed a single type of dog. If they have 3 or 4 different breeds, or even 2 vastly different breeds, then you have to wonder how they have the knowledge to do so responsibly. I do know a lady who breeds both GSD and Chinese Crested but she works her butt off studying pedigrees, going to shows and trials and generally treats each breed as a separate full-time job so that she can do it correctly.

This website is geared toward GSD but the same general rules apply for any breeder. http://gsdrcolorado.com/good_breeder.html

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
online ads will rarely be used by responsible breeders. they may list upcoming breedings in a breed specific group where they've already had an active presence but, for the most part, they don't really need to advertise like that. They are known in their breed for their dogs. People who research the breed, ask people where they have gotten their dog, go to events, etc are going to hear their name. They will learn how to contact them. Many older breeders don't advertise, have websites, or even a facebook page. Some barely use email yet have waiting lists that cover several litters. Those breeders who do have an online presence often use it as the first step to wading through potential buyers. They have puppy questionnaires, often a copy of their contract and their guarantee, they have photos of their dogs accomplishments, lists of titles and awards, and pedigree info for their dogs. Word to the wise, however, some of the best breeders have atrocious websites. Many also have poor people skills and little patience with people they view as time wasters. Breeders who do advertise occasionally online or in print use it more as a way to bring people in and educate them on what a responsible breeder is actually like. Sometimes that saves someone from buying from a puppy mill. Sometimes it means they waste a lot of time educating someone who would rather save a couple $$ and thinks "a dog is a dog"

 

[GitaBooks]

There are just too many red flags with this person. I would run from seller and find some decent people to buy from. I used to breed and show dogs many years ago. The parents were always brought out to show size, personality, looks etc.
Or if the litter was from a stud across the country, I would bring out the mother.

I would not let puppies leave till they had their shots because I couldn't always depend on the new owners to continue with the series. My pups were trimmed and bathed, nails cut, ears cleaned etc. Depending on age they were lead trained and starting house training. I always explained why a particular dog was pet quality. I encouraged them to take the dog to a vet to assure themselves that it was in healthy condition.

My niece got a shelter dog and he came loaded so badly with ticks, she found them crawling her walls the next morning. She had him treated at a vet and her house had to be fumigated. That was the least of his problems. He was allergic to many things, he was afraid of everything, it's only now that he is an elderly dog that he has settled down. She had dogs from breeders before and didn't have a problem

My sister got a dog from the same shelter, they let him go before he was even evaluated.I could not list all the problems he has had and continues to have. She has had great expense in having dog trainers work with him with but, continues to have major lapses at home. My sister also has had previous dogs from breeders with no major issues.

I would shun newspaper or online ads for dogs. Too many ads will be "chowpoos" or some other version of mixed breeds which the seller will claim is a "designer breed." Mainly the ads will have prices $ 500-$ 1000 or so. So people assume these are valuable dogs. The only designer feature is the outrageous price.

If you have a chance at all go to a dog show (not county or state fair,) a REAL dog show where you can observe the breeds, talk to the owners, and see what the dogs are like with many strangers around them. Show breeders always have some pet stock from their top bloodlines - they have flaws that make them unsuitable for show but, not for being a loveable pet. They have the stock checked for whatever inherited defects the breed is prone too. And have proof of the results.

Sounds like you took great care of your dogs!