inbreeding....yes or no???

[ChickenWisperer]

Inbreeding is NEVER a good idea unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to maintain a certain characteristic.

You run into a boatload of problems when inbreeding, and unless you want to cull a lot of birds and be very particular about it, don't do it. If you just don't want to get a new roo, don't do it. It will intensify any "family" flaw when you do it - keep that in mind....

 

[centrarchid]

I use linebreeding when I have a quality individual that I want to anchor my population to or to slow loss of desireable genes. Inbreeding involving full siblings and outbreeding is used when a change is desired. I use all three methods depending on goal.

 

[GypsyChic]

Quote:
Yep, couldnt agree more. Especially in my D'uccle and Silkie programs for steping-stone on F2/F3 genetics. As stated, excellent way to set your desirable traits and build upon, then cull where needed.

 

[MovieFanz]

This link is called "The Inbreeding Problems in Poultry." By Iowa State College.

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/1931/1/120.pdf

 

[Chris09]

The is a difference between In-Breeding [breeding brother/ sister] and line Breeding [breeding offspring back to there parents].
Here is a example of a, “3 times in and once out.” line breeding program.

By Dr Charles R H Everett & Craig Russell

My personal research in breeding has led me to begin gathering and collecting articles and books by cockers of long ago; these men of the past preserved several different breeds of chickens for hundreds possibly even thousands of years. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparallel degree. It is my belief that their methods of breeding should be examined in detail to be utilized by the modern preservationist. Let me add, however, that this article is not an endorsement or defense of cockfighting; neither will I belie them in any manner. Instead, it is a heartfelt acknowledgment to men who perfected the art of breeding chickens. Further, I believe the modern preservationist can learn much more from the breeding techniques of cockers than he/she can from textbooks on commercial poultry breeding. (Note* It should go without saying that at all times you must select for vigor and type regardless of the breeding system utilized. Cocker Tan Bark states, “Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl…” (Tan Bark, Game Chickens and How to Breed Them, 1964, p. 27). What the ole time cockers strove for was prepotency. They desired to be able to predict with reasonable accuracy the outcome of any particular mating. For this reason, no cocker worth his salt would have consistently used the out-and-out system. Granted, at times they did cross, but very carefully. Their records consistently indicate that when they did cross they did so using the same strain of fowl they were hoping to improve. Of course, they were looking for gameness, but using their methods a breeder can breed for type, fertility, egg production, etc. The first system I would introduce was utilized by William Morgan, of Morgan Whitehackle fame, and some of the English cockers. It is a form of breeding known as “3 times in and once out.” This system was used to produce, in cockers’ terms, a “pure strain.” The following chart will explain how the system works. First Generation Hen Cock ½ hen ½ cock

Second Generation Hen to son Cock to daughter ¾ hen ¾ cock

Third Generation Hen to grandson Cock to granddaughter 7/8 hen 7/8 cock

Fourth Generation Hen to ggrandson Cock to ggranddaughter 15/16 hen 15/16 cock

Now in the 5th generation you breed the 15/16 hen to the 15/16 cock. Then, choosing the best hen(s) and cock(s) you begin again (Narragansett, The Gamecock, 1985, pp. 44-45). C. A. Finsterbusch recommends the same breeding strategy in his famous book Cockfighting All Over the Word page 152—153. If they chose to continue line breeding these fowl were what they termed “seed stock.” Seed stock was never pitted. Instead, they were crossed to a different strain to produce their “battle cocks.” Battle cocks were never used in breeding pens if this system were employed. Or, at this point you choose the three to five best hens and begin the clan mating system. Alva Campbell who created the “Campbell Blue Boones” during the early years of the twentieth century line bred his outstanding pullets to one cock, “Daniel Boone,” for eleven straight years (Histories of Game Strains, Grit and Steel, no date given, p.26). D. H. Pierce claimed his “Wisconsin Red Shufflers” were line bred for 35 years with no loss of vigor or gameness. (Histories of Game Strains, Grit and Steel, no date given, p. 20). How did these men accomplish this when so many modern textbooks on poultry genetics maintain this is impossible to do? I have discovered several key answers. First, “an inbreeder must breed only from his most vigorous… specimens” (Tan Bark, Game Chickens, 1964, p. 28). Second, they culled ruthlessly. Third, in any form of line breeding the youthfulness of the stock used cannot be overstated. Fourth, they often carried on the same mating (One cock to one hen) for four or five years. Thus, in twenty years it was possible to have only produced four or five distinct generations. When cockers happened upon a cock and hen that produced winners in the pit, then they mated these two year after year. Fifth, they kept accurate records of every mating and often practiced single matings. Sixth, they only attempted close inbreeding on free range giving the birds every advantage of producing constitutional soundness and vitality (Tan Bark, Game Chickens, 1964, p. 28). These six keys allowed the cockers to be greatly successful at the art of breeding game fowl centuries before the advent of modern genetics. Many cockers practiced variations of the rolling-matings and clan-matings systems. When practicing the rolling-matings they would often include side matings of line breeding. When using the clan system the large breeders often kept five to seven clans. (They called them “yards.”) With the clan matings they most often used the matriarchal system as advocated by Dick Demansky. At times they would create “new” clans or yards of full sisters when a particular hen within the clan produced exceptional sons. Thus, this one hen became prepotent in the new yard through her daughters. Like those of traditional farmers, for whom poultry was an important part of the subsistence, the methods of cockers have often been disparaged by modern experts. But for serious preservationists and small flock owners in general their tried and true methods are among the surest ways to turn simple reproduction into serious breeding and systematic flock improvement. One of the truly wonderful things about raising chickens is that you the breeder can choose your own system of breeding to create your “own strain.” Yes, you can even experiment! Regardless of how you personally feel about the sport of cockfighting, these men of a by gone era have much to teach us. So, why not learn from the original preservationist: cockers?

Information found at Ultimate Fowl Wikipedia

Chris

 

[centrarchid]

Line breeding is a form of inbreeding that can be used to conserve genetic variation. Low frequency alleles of progenitor parent bred back to can be conserved in line so long as progenitor parent is breeding. Continued breeding back to that individual does not increase odds of deleterious recessive alleles from becoming homozygous.

When the progenitor is replaced by a one of its offspring, ideally care is taken with test mating to ensure risk of undesirable alleles is minimized. Multiple potential replacements can be mated to individuals of known genotype with undesired allele, those potential replacements that throw offspring homozygous for undesirable recessive allele can be eliminated from breeding program. This is where most line breeding programs come up short. Failure to control for individuals with negative recessive alleles is when short-term problems similar to those sibling-sibling matings arise, albeit more slowly.

A more insidious long-term problem is where homozygous state for some alleles that are great for one set of conditions (like with breeding for show only) that can degrade a lines genetic variability needed to perform in some aspect of production not selected for in breeding program or future challenge by a disease / parasite.

Periodic out breeding is ultimately required to restore genetic variability unless breeding population size is well beyond what exist within most flocks.

 

[georgiayankee]

So if I add new bloodline then line breed what potential traits should I look for?? Hatch rate, strength, weight, just wondering because I have Sussex and don't know if they were linebred or not so I wanted to play it safe...I had a half and half mortality rate from what hatched...that's why I considered adding new blood just in case??

 

[3riverschick]

So if I add new bloodline then line breed what potential traits should I look for?? Hatch rate, strength, weight, just wondering because I have Sussex and don't know if they were linebred or not so I wanted to play it safe...I had a half and half mortality rate from what hatched...that's why I considered adding new blood just in case??

Hi,
What variety of Sussex do you have? That makes a difference. From whom did you buy your birds?
I need some background on the bird's heritage before I can answer you.
Thanks,
Karen

 

[georgiayankee]

Hi,
 What variety of Sussex do you have? That makes a difference. From whom did you buy your birds?
I need some background on the bird's heritage before I can answer you.
 Thanks,
 Karen

I have Coronation Sussex ..I bought them from acfruends son who bought them from a breeder in a nearby town. I think he hatched them from hatching eggs from greenfire farms. I also just hatched out speckled susssex that I purchased as hatching eggs but she said they came from 3 different flocks...so I'm not sure if I should do another round of those from a different breeder. I'm new at this.

 

[3riverschick]

I have Coronation Sussex ..I bought them from a friend's son who bought them from a breeder in a nearby town. I think he hatched them from hatching eggs from Greenfire farms. I also just hatched out speckled Sussex that I purchased as hatching eggs but she said they came from 3 different flocks...so I'm not sure if I should do another round of those from a different breeder. I'm new at this.

If you have the top quality, Inbreed the Speckled Sussex, . If not, then line breed the birds AND WHEN YOU GET FOUNDATION QUALITY, THEN INBREED. they have plenty of biodiversity already. in fact they have too much diversity. 3 flocks? someone didn't understand this variety. it s the most difficult color to breed, being a tricolor. Historically the breed experts advise choosing a top quality vintage line bred strain and line breed it. One strain and line breed on it. In this color, unless you are very talented, one does not cross strains to found a flock. It takes many years to get the gene pool of flock stable enough to reliably reproduce a superior pattern in multiple generations. That said, you need to get with a Speckled Sussex specialist. Tony Albritton in Idaho or Gary Overton ( Mr. Sussex) Ohio. Walt Reichert KY. send them pics of your birds. side, top, front, and head study of each bird in a natural standing position. Have the breeder help you pick out birds for an inbreeding project. Then carefully listen to their counsel for the next 3 generations at least.
Here's an example of doing it the right way. Skytop speckled Sussex bantams wanted to create a new strain. So they went to Gary Overton's top show quality strain dn crossed it to Edgar Mongold's top quality show quality strain. Then carefully winnowed the best from each strain to make their own. Now they are APA Master Breeders of bantam Speckled Sussex.
http://www.reocities.com/skytopbantams/sussex.html "Lily" is a super example of the Overton strain of bantam Speckled Sussex.
Take some time with the Coronations.
Get to know the strain. The coronations are from Australia where they breed big birds. In many cases too big for the US Standard Of Perfection. Often they need to be bred down a bit in size and with less loose feathering.
this 9 page thesis is one of the best I have ever read ad is applicable to all varieties of Sussex. Written by a famous poultry man who later went on to be President of the British Poultry Club. It defines the breed , not just an era in breeding.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=1up;seq=5
Best,
Karen
for further study:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...s-charts-and-lots-of-reading-updated-nov-13th