Is this feed recipe healthy?

[saysfaa]

... autumn olive berries are not as nutritious; so much so that it harms the birds...I might look for the source ...

Here are a few sources that talk about it.

"Though abundant, the fruit are of low nutritional value to wildlife in comparison to the native shrub species they displace.... Like other invasive shrubs, autumn olive’s fruit is low in proteins and fats but high in carbohydrates, rendering it less nutritious than fruit from the native plants that it displaces from habitats...." https://extension.psu.edu/autumn-olive#:~:text=Background

"...although autumn olives do produce a lot of food for birds at one point in the year, they do not provide much habitat for native insects, which much prefer (and may be completely dependent on) our native shrubs and other plants to complete their life cycles." https://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/what-we-do/resource-centre/invasive-species/autumn-olive.html

"Native plant species have larger insect populations... Insects are crucial because they provide the protein young birds need to grow.

Insects and native plants evolve together...They adapt to the chemicals in plants that plants use to protect themselves. The result is caterpillars and other insects can consume those plants and thrive without harm, while invasive plants remain inedible and have fewer insects and less food for birds. Tallamy writes:

'We used to think this was good. Kill all insects before they eat our plants! But an insect that cannot eat part of a leaf cannot fulfill its role in the food web. ..

My research has shown that alien ornamentals support 29 times less biodiversity than do native ornamentals. Our studies have shown that even modest increases in the native plant cover on suburban properties significantly increase the number and species of breeding birds, including birds of conservation concern.'

...Studies have found that invasive plant fruits are high in sugar but not high in lipids [fat], and [migrating] birds are trying to fatten up. Some will double their body mass for migration....

Other study findings include that Catbirds foraging in native plant terrain had better immune functions. They were also less stressed..."

https://howardmeyerson.com/2016/09/...shows-native-plants-are-better-for-nutrition/

It also damages waterways.

"...studies in Illinois streams show that there is a strong connection between autumn olive populations and nitrate levels within the streams.7...
https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/sc...he-invasive-autumn-olive-elaeagnus-umbellata/

And, perhaps personally, when I first noticed it, I thought it was very pretty in several season. Now, not so much because it is the only plant I see besides the tall mature forests in the background for many miles at a time as I drive. It started with replacing the sumac and choke cherry and birch. Now it is filling in where all the grassy meadows were.

 

[Sally PB]

Very interesting articles about autumn olive. Thank you.

I know I'll never be able to eradicate it from our property, as it's been impossible to get rid of the 3 or 4 that we've tried to cut down/dig up. No, I'm not going to use glyphosate.

After I learned what it was, I started noticing it everywhere along the highways and roads around here.

 

[Folly's place]

So true about autumn olive, it's everywhere! Formerly recommended to plant, like multiflora rose, both turned out to be not at all good.
And here we have the extremely toxic poison hemlock, also growing everywhere!
And I wish there was a use for garlic mustard...
Mary

 

[saysfaa]

I think it is possible to eradicate individual clumps without chemicals despite what most of the references say. One key is don't ever cut them back in the spring. That stimulates growth and vigor noticeably more than it damages the plant. All the clumps I did that to are bigger and healthier than the clumps I didn't regardless of what else I've done to them afterwards.

Instead, cut them back whenever there is drought conditions. And cut them back in the mid to late fall of every year. It is best to cut back all of the trunks at the same time - like, better to do one clump and get them all every time than to whack at parts of several clumps or skip years.

They are drought resistant but it is still a more vulnerable time than other options.

When you cut them back, cut just below the branches. They produce many sprouts at the cut and you can get all of those with one cut an inch or so lower than your last cut. If you cut at ground level, you have to cut each of the suckers individually. That is unpleasant because of the numbers and because they are so thick that it is hard to get the saw or pruners in good position.

And pull out any seedlings. They do pull out when they are small enough.

Also, either burn the branches and, especially, anything with root pieces on it or lay them where they don't contact the ground. I have pine or spruce trees that I'm also trying to eradicate; they make pretty good drying racks for the AO.

It is a multiyear project but I think it is possible.

I'm considering cutting them back between blossoming and the fruit ripening also but haven't tried that yet.

I do use roundup on them sometimes but not consistently (because I often forget to take it with me or plan to work only on other things when I load up to go out there). When I use it, I use a small paintbrush to paint the cut surfaces and an inch or so of the bark below the cut and that is all. It obviously helps (but it still needs cutting back several times) but I can see enough progress on the clumps that didn't get it at all to think it is possible without it. I have lots of clumps to run experiments on, unfortunately for me but maybe helpfully for someone.

Apologies for the thread drift.

 

[NatJ]

I have lots of clumps to run experiments on, unfortunately for me but maybe helpfully for someone.

Have you tried cutting it back to the ground, then mulching heavily to keep it from regrowing? By "mulch heavily" I mean something like a big piece of of plywood, or a half-inch thick stack of newspaper, with something on top to keep it from blowing away (rock, log, layer of wood chips). I would expect to leave the mulch in place for at least an entire year, and check regularly in case the plant sends up new pieces around the edges or works its way straight through.

This has worked for me with some kinds of stubborn plants. I don't think I've had anything as bad as your autumn olive to work with, which is why I'm curious if it would work there too.

 

[saysfaa]

I haven't tried that; I will if I get a chance. If anyone else does, please share the results.

 

[Altairsky]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...eat-tears-a-calculator-or-deep-pockets.78655/

I use this recipe and had zero problems. My chickens also free range, and they have some animal protein at least twice a week (meat or fish scraps, cheese scraps - lots of cheese scraps and milk soaked bread since I run a dairy farm).
I also add hemp seeds for omega 3, cowpeas, and sunflower seeds.

 

[UpstateChickenDaddy]

I'm not sure what experts, but that's a sub-par feed on numerous metrics. Curious where you found that.

I'm looking at 13% Protein (low), 5% fiber (fine), 6% fat (high, but potentially ok) sub-par Met (even with the Fertrell's that includes dl-Met. If you use the Fertrells w/o, is quite deficient), Lysine is fine, Threonine is deficient, Tryp is quite deficient, and its got a lot of energy - at the top end of targets.

I would not feed that to my birds - but if your pasture is good enough, potentially adult birds could do fine. Looking out at my pasture? I wouldn't risk it.

Otherwise, COMPLETELY agree with formulating recipes in pounds (or grams, or Kg, or stones, or any other measure of weight)

Oops! You’re correct! I knew I had calculated out to be a bit over 18% protein so I rechecked my recipe. I completely forgot the fishmeal in my list above. Apologies. To the above I add 3 lbs of fishmeal which brought me to 18ish% protein if my maths are correct. I was back and forth between what I was reading about fishmeal versus soybeans. I settled on fishmeal but unsure if this is the best or not. Seems to be some concern about mercury etc but soy has its own drawbacks. Any thoughts?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Oops! You’re correct! I knew I had calculated out to be a bit over 18% protein so I rechecked my recipe. I completely forgot the fishmeal in my list above. Apologies. To the above I add 3 lbs of fishmeal which brought me to 18ish% protein if my maths are correct. I was back and forth between what I was reading about fishmeal versus soybeans. I settled on fishmeal but unsure if this is the best or not. Seems to be some concern about mercury etc but soy has its own drawbacks. Any thoughts?

Yes. No one gets out of life alive.

There are no perfect solutions.

Everything is a tradeoff, with life being the only game in town. Might as well pull up a chair, play a couple hands.

Soy (meal, typically) and fish (meal) or crab (meal) or porcine blood meal, or insect meal, even corn gluten meal are all often used to boost total Crude Protein and specifically the amount of methionine in your total protein. Which one is "best" depends on availability, price, and the composition of the rest of your feed.

No one size fits all answers, either.

 

[UpstateChickenDaddy]

Yes. No one gets out of life alive.

There are no perfect solutions.

Everything is a tradeoff, with life being the only game in town. Might as well pull up a chair, play a couple hands.

Soy (meal, typically) and fish (meal) or crab (meal) or porcine blood meal, or insect meal, even corn gluten meal are all often used to boost total Crude Protein and specifically the amount of methionine in your total protein. Which one is "best" depends on availability, price, and the composition of the rest of your feed.

No one size fits all answers, either.

Thanks! A 40lb bag of fishmeal goes a long way for me so the pricetag of around US$90 for organic seemed reasonable. Sometimes I think I should just get pellets or some other prepared food. Mixing it up is a bear and takes half a day as I do it by hand so I have to make small batch after small batch. I can say however that the chicken test sold me. Once they ate the homemade feed, after they grew out of the chick and grower food, they were disintersted in the commercial feed. That may be a terrible test as every creature will eat what they like best regardless of nutrition I suppose including humans.