Is too much protein bad for adult Chickens ?

[sugarbush]

There has been no scientific research done on protein toxicity in chickens that I am aware of which is why I prefaced my statement with IMO. The closest thing we have to research for chickens is some studies on cockateals at UC davis in the 80s.

That research suggested that cockateals could waste the excess protein so it had little impact on them other than gout. He did do a comparison on chickens to see how much protein it took to cause gout in chickens and he found that at 70% chickens get gout from excess protein.

So my theory is you will either shorten their lives because they are getting too much protein and you are stressing out their organ systems, or they are able to adjust and waste the excess protein so you are just wasting your money buying the more exspensive feed.

Livestock nutrition is complicated which is why feed mixers have labs and scientists working for them. The best thing for us laymen to do for our birds is to either follow the recommendations of the feed mixers or try and feed our birds as naturally as possible and hope for the best.

 

[BaronRenfrew]

As a farm kid, I know that the higher the protein in the grain you grow the more you get paid for it. Grain will naturally vary from 12% to 18%. Domino's Pizza buys all their grain from Upstate NY as the wheat there gets to 18% (I forget the rest of that food course).

Grain for livestock is of the lower grade than for kellogs or other human consumption. That's why protein supplement (soybean at 45%) is added. In fact the feed companies put in as little protein as they can get away with.

Think about it: in the wild the birds eat berries and seeds, then the bugs arrive when the chicks hatch so the protein arrives when they need it. If a bird lays one clutch of eggs peryear then the protein needs are lower than for a constant layer.

Try and stop a chicken from chasing a grasshopper. Guineas are famous as carnivores and eat grain when they don't have a choice.

Up to 30% protein, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Wifezilla]

I have a bunch of rocky mountain finches that nest under my porch every year. They will keep laying and raising clutches of eggs as long as there is enough light per day for egg laying. They usually get 3 hatches per year. They mostly eat bugs and seeds which is lots of protein and lots of fat.

Wild ducks spend their day eating bugs, frogs, minnows, worms, weeds, etc... Again, lots of fat and protein with leafy greens. Sure, they will gladly stop over in a grain field late fall and pick up what the farmer left after harvest, but grains are not the main source of food on a daily basis for these animals.

What is most commercial feed? Grain.
Did birds evolve eating grains daily? No

 

[sugarbush]

I think if you did a search you would be surprises at how low protein most insects are. For example a termite is only 14.2% protein. Earthworms in a natural state are around 28-36% depending on species. I have never seen a chicken eat a frog........Most insects in a natural state are less than 30% protein.

Feed protein is most often derived from animal sources, soy protein is the only exception because it is equivalant to animal proteins and most other plant proteins are not.

It is hard to compare feed mixes to a natural poultry diet. Wer have no way of camparison because we don't know how many grasshoppers a chicken will eat if foraging naturally and we can't campare the weight of the total forage to the weight of a mixed feed. If somebody could design a study to figure out what % protein a chicken on a complete free range diet ingests; I would be willing to bet that it is far lass than the 15-16% that a mixed feed provides.

 

[Wifezilla]

"An earthworm's body is 72 percent protein"
"When they die, earthworms which are 60 percent protein, add rich quantities of nitrogen to the soil."
"They contain sixty to seventy percent protein and very little fat. Earthworms are entirely edible and, aside from the initial preparation, are very easy to ..."
"Earthworm composition
Crude Protein-62.2%
Crude Fat-17.7%
Calcium-1.72"
"Earthworms and termites contained high levels of sterols, mainly cholesterol. The consumption of these animals by tropical human populations represents not only an important traditional habit but also, considering their nutritional composition, a substantial contribution to the human diet."
"termites are very high in protein — about 68 percent "
http://books.google.com/books?id=tp...odiHAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

I am not sure where you are getting your information.

Not only do chickens eat frogs, they will fight over them. Also small lizards, snakes, and ask the other chicken owners about the favorite chicken snack affectionately known as "pinks".

Chickens and ducks are not herbivores, they are omnivores and require animal protein for optimal health.

And soy is a sorry replacement for animal protein and contains many anti-nutrients that are only neutralized through a fermentation process. That aint soy sauce in those feed bags.

I would love to see an actual study and I would be willing to bet that, not only is the protein percentage higher, the fat percentage is MUCH higher in a natural diet than domestic poultry get.

 

[lisahaschickens]

I don't want to get invloved at this point, but I most very much agree with Wifezilla on all points.

 

[WoodlandWoman]

When you're looking at insects and worms, it makes a big difference if you're looking at the percentages of protein based on dry weight or not. It's like comparing the percentage of protein on dog foods, when one is dry food and the other is canned.

A live worm or insect will have a much lower percentage of protein in it than one that is dried, because of all the moisture in it. The actual amount of protein isn't different in the individual insect or worm, just the percentage, by weight.

If you wanted to compare protein percentages in chicken feed vs insects and worms, I'd be using dried weight values for the insects and worms, to make it a fair comparison.

My chickens eat all the insects and worms they can find when they're out, but they also eat a lot of vegetable matter.

 

[sugarbush]

Thanks woodlandwoman.

They completely missed in my post the term "natural state". % protein is based on weight. Yes if you dehydrate a termite or and earthworm by frying it it will be 60-80% protein because you draw off water weight. So now it takes a lot more to equal the same weight as a live one.

If we are talking about protein in a natural diet you have to stay with in the perameters of what a chicken can find naturally. That is not going to be a fried or dried earthworm usually

The argument that I think is trying to be made here is that a wild chickens diet is going to be higher in protein because of all the bugs they eat. If you want to see the effects a natural diet has on your chickens take away all of their feed and let them fend for themselves. They will nearly stop laying without any feed supplmentation from us.

Please note the termite per 100 grams = 14.2 gm protein. 14.2/100 = 14.2% http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2160.html.

 

[Wifezilla]

The comparison of people feeding vs totally free ranging is not the point. The actual debate and fair comparison is commercial feed vs natural feed.

As for dry vs live...I got that. While it is convenient to focus on one...termites, it ignores the lizards, frogs, and "pinks", insect eggs, and everything else a wild version of our poultry would eat given the chance. One thing ducks like (and I am a duck owner) is Duckweed. Duckweed under POOR growing conditions has 25% protein. Under good conditions, it has between 35%-43% protein. Both situations give plants higher in protein than that found in standard commercial feed.

"Live termites provide about 350 calories per 100 grams with 23 percent protein and 28 percent fat"
"Earthworms raw or cooked have a nice concentration of 70 percent protein and are abundant to collect. "
"Moths that you find flying around your lights are edible and taste pretty good, a little bit like almonds. Moth larvae provide about 265 calories per 100 grams. The are about 63 percent protein and 15 percent fat."

Now, if we can just find a scientist to properly test both side of the issue and settle this for us. Quick! Someone leave a pocket protector out as bait!

 

[sugarbush]

I think you are still mixing up your measurement values. A termite may be 90% protein its self. What I mean by that is that a termite could be 90% protein, 10 % water to make 100%.

But feed is based on % per gram. So in order to compare the two the termite must be converted to % per gram. The average weight of a termite is 0.00346 gm accourding to bluwoodinternational. So it will take about 380 termites to equal 1 gm by weight. So if a termite is 90% protein you have to devide that by 380 to get the % per gm that feed is weighed in.

So when using a source for protein content you need to use a scientific source that is measuring in grams rather than one that is measuring per insect or you need to do the math that I have shown above.

Now to answer the original post as at this point I am sure we have completely confused everybody:

The bottom line is that the feed companies have spent thousands of dollars in research to find the optimal nutritional mix for the specific bird. If it was okay to feed all animals one feed they would not mix the hundreds of veriations that they do. They know what will maximize productive life and that is what they mix for. You should either buy a commercial feed meant for what you are feeding or you should match that nutritional balance as closely as possible. It is about more than just the protein. The game bird feed may be lacking a nutrient that is essential to your chickens; or it may have one that is toxic to them in the amount that is mixed into that feed.

If you feel you must push the envolope than do the research and compare the feeds, but that is going to take a lot of footwork. here is a good start. http://www.ansci.umn.edu/poultry/resources/nutrition.htm