MARCH Hatch-A-Long 2015: Please Read the First Post to JOIN the H-A-L

[rainbowchick]

Shipped eggs should be arriving either tomorrow or Saturday. Keeping my fingers crossed the cold doesn't damage them. They are traveling from Florida to the tip of Maine, and we are still having -13 below nights here. I'm a little worried about how cold the eggs will get, Really hoping they arrive ok. I will be setting them after 24 hours.

Did you have an option for a 72 hour warmer? My shipped eggs I got last week traveled through subzero temps and the warmer kept them from freezing. They are now 12/13 showing veining...

 

[bekkanblue]

I got another egg from my wheaten maran hen! So far I only have two eggs from her, (she is old and her production is not very good) I want as many eggs as possible from her, since the chicks will be Olive Eggers.



I plan to start up the incubator tomorrow. It needs a little work first though.

She's beautiful!!

 

[mymilliefleur]

She's beautiful!!

Thanks. I really want to get some more wheaten marans at some point!

 

[paris_r]

So it would make so that 80% instead of 50% made it to lockdown but that you would still get 80% hatch of those that went into lockdown correct?

no, read again, the devil is in the details--

..... but these treatments did not have a pronounced effect on egg characteristics, hatchability, or chick quality."....

so net gain = 0
yes more cells were viable but no difference was seen at the time point that counts-the hatching. if more live longer yet still die then the application is only good for things like balut. they didnt mention lack of statistical significance, they used a more wiggle term 'pronounced effect'. point me to the paper. many abstracts do not agree with the data if read by an unbiased observer (i.e. not the researcher who pets project it is).

i am unsure about 3 days pre incubation, like your seed analogy, once sprouted it is all or nothing, if temps arent maintained then critical development slows. odd thing though is here in our very hot TX summers eggs will self germinate despite the cooler nights and no hen sitting on them, they will get to a veined state then die.

Yes, in theory, 80% of the 80%, instead of 80% of the 50%. (Hypothetically speaking)

lets say you had 100 eggs, 80% of that is 80 eggs, and then 80% hatching from that is 64 chicks.
Of another 100, 50% making it to lockdown would be 50 eggs. and 80% of 50 is 40!
now that would be a difference, but by the statement you quoted from the paper they say there is no difference.
the one things i know makes a difference in late stage survivability and hatching success is ascorbic acid (1g/l) topically applied. also diet of the mother helps in egg viabilty.


you point me to the articles and i will look at the full article (i have full A&M access since i am a student, and yes biology is my field). careful too of who's articles these are, if the are actually peer reviewed, statistically significant results and not just someone who can publish to an .edu website.

 

[jbkirk]

no, read again, the devil is in the details--

..... but these treatments did not have a pronounced effect on egg characteristics, hatchability, or chick quality."....

so net gain = 0
yes more cells were viable but no difference was seen at the time point that counts-the hatching. if more live longer yet still die then the application is only good for things like balut. they didnt mention lack of statistical significance, they used a more wiggle term 'pronounced effect'. point me to the paper. many abstracts do not agree with the data if read by an unbiased observer (i.e. not the researcher who pets project it is).

i am unsure about 3 days pre incubation, like your seed analogy, once sprouted it is all or nothing, if temps arent maintained then critical development slows. odd thing though is here in our very hot TX summers eggs will self germinate despite the cooler nights and no hen sitting on them, they will get to a veined state then die.
lets say you had 100 eggs, 80% of that is 80 eggs, and then 80% hatching from that is 64 chicks.
Of another 100, 50% making it to lockdown would be 50 eggs. and 80% of 50 is 40!
now that would be a difference, but by the statement you quoted from the paper they say there is no difference.
the one things i know makes a difference in late stage survivability and hatching success is ascorbic acid (1g/l) topically applied. also diet of the mother helps in egg viabilty.


you point me to the articles and i will look at the full article (i have full A&M access since i am a student, and yes biology is my field). careful too of who's articles these are, if the are actually peer reviewed, statistically significant results and not just someone who can publish to an .edu website.

So even you are unsure AND a student.

 

[paris_r]

So even you are unsure AND a student.

yes! and anyone who says they have all the answers is usually wrong. welcome to biology, this aint physics folks. forget basic genetics, there is now epigenetics, post-traslational modifications and gene silencing. i state i am unsure since i have not read much on this topic, that is why i said point me to it.

in biology there are soo many fields and one can be an expert in a specific topic or even cell line and not know anything other than text book data (tertiary data is 10 years old at least and pretty much dogmatic) outside their specific area. however, part of education is getting the tools (like critical thinking) to then evaluate what is published.if an experimental design is flawed and has more than one variable or is stating assumptions like they are fact (or cites reviews) I do have the skills to see that. i may be in the molecular biology program but i am more a systemic biologist, because most biology is dynamic and many functions are emergent (read as 'perfect conditions for...').

>>i give you a point in my area of interest, regeneration. book after book and paper after paper says 'nerves are necessary for regeneration'. their example is if you denervate a newt then cut off its arm it will not grow back, (they will normally grow back) --therefor nerves are necessary. problem is that you can denervate a limb and then get the arm/leg to regenerate. the difference is timing, when the limb was denervated. many who write the claim about nerves are generalists and it takes some more digging to find out the conditions that allow for regeneration of a denervated limb.

 

[rainbowchick]

no, read again, the devil is in the details--

[COLOR=333333]..... but these treatments did not have a pronounced effect on egg characteristics, hatchability, or chick quality."....[/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]so net gain = 0[/COLOR]
[COLOR=333333]yes more cells were viable but no difference was seen at the time point that counts-the hatching. if more live longer yet still die then the application is only good for things like balut. they didnt mention lack of statistical significance, they used a more wiggle term 'pronounced effect'. point me to the paper. many abstracts do not agree with the data if read by an unbiased observer (i.e. not the researcher who pets project it is).[/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]i am unsure about 3 days pre incubation, like your seed analogy, once sprouted it is all or nothing, if temps arent maintained then critical development slows. odd thing though is here in our very hot TX summers eggs will self germinate despite the cooler nights and no hen sitting on them, they will get to a veined state then die.[/COLOR]
lets say you had 100 eggs, 80% of that is 80 eggs, and then 80% hatching from that is 64 chicks.
Of another 100, 50% making it to lockdown would be 50 eggs. and 80% of 50 is 40!
now that would be a difference, but by the statement you quoted from the paper they say there is no difference.
the one things i know makes a difference in late stage survivability and hatching success is ascorbic acid (1g/l) topically applied. also diet of the mother helps in egg viabilty.


you point me to the articles and i will look at the full article (i have full A&M access since i am a student, and yes biology is my field). careful too of who's articles these are, if the are actually peer reviewed, statistically significant results and not just someone who can publish to an .edu website. 

Well, here's the link. I just read through most of it. I hadn't realized the full version was available to the public till I pulled it up to copy for you. There's a lot of "well it does this, but it doesn't do that, and it might do this, if the variables were different"...
Interestingly, towards the end, it gives links to several other papers written on the same concept. If you'd like to peruse those and get back to us, I'm sure we'd all like to be enlightened!

http://m.ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/89/11/2470.long?view=long&pmid=20952711

ETA: I did not mean to sound snarky, btw. My degrees/certifications are in business, accounting, sales, gardening, and gemology. So if you need help running a business, or need to know how to prune an apple tree, or want to know the difference in hardness between sapphires and garnets, I'm your woman. If you need someone to read and decipher a research paper, I may not be the best choice out there.

 

[paris_r]

Well, here's the link. I just read through most of it. I hadn't realized the full version was available to the public till I pulled it up to copy for you. There's a lot of "well it does this, but it doesn't do that, and it might do this, if the variables were different"...
Interestingly, towards the end, it gives links to several other papers written on the same concept. If you'd like to peruse those and get back to us, I'm sure we'd all like to be enlightened!

http://m.ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/89/11/2470.long?view=long&pmid=20952711

ETA: I did not mean to sound snarky, btw. My degrees/certifications are in business, accounting, sales, gardening, and gemology. So if you need help running a business, or need to know how to prune an apple tree, or want to know the difference in hardness between sapphires and garnets, I'm your woman. If you need someone to read and decipher a research paper, I may not be the best choice out there.

no problem i am open to educated debate, and if something paradigm shifting or new comes a long i am open to examining it, i just found out a month ago most of what i knew/was taught to me about neutrophils (an immune cell) is wrong, and now i am just fascinated about them!) there are just too many people who are so sure about their 'results' who dont realize they have an obvious bias (like that crack pot personality that claims she cured the vaccine induced autism) and people who will just tell you anything to try to impress. i wonder though because to follow loose advice can cost, especially as most of us are small time breeders. i read 6 papers before i was convinced about ascorbic acid (and also found out it is not vitamin C, even thought everyone (nearly) calls it that). but the benefit of my current education status and skill sets is i have access to almost all publications (some russian stuff from the 50's eludes me and an 1868 paper...) and i can interpret for those who cant parse the jargon. i did find another two recent publications on what you are mentioning here and will read them soon, from brief reading though it appears again timing is at the heart, one even takes the eggs to 21 days.

my degrees are all over the place; commercial art, biology, geography and environment and now molecular biology. my research animals have been amphibians and mammals(mice) so chickens are terra incognita for the most part but most higher life forms share much much more than most people expect, nearly exact genes and gene products for example.

if this does prove to be significant that would be great, i was just pointing out that the quotes given did not support the conclusions from the members.

i just sprayed my eggs from the 17th, no way to significantly test efficiency but like i said the papers support it.

 

[whattheduck]

Finally got my hatching eggs today! They sure are purty!

This is my second hatch and once again, I have more eggs than incubator space...by a lot! I ordered 20 and got 36, plus I am expecting a small lot of 4-6 in the next day or so. Not going to all fit in my Brinsea Octagon. What to do? I had my eye on the Genesis for a hatcher, going to have to talk to the hubs and see what we can do.

These babies came from all pure standard size hens and roos running together, everything from EE to BCM to Red Star, a true mystery bunch.

So PURTTTYYYYY

 

[kbarnes]

@paris_r @rainbowchick
I don't know near enough about this as you do, but this debate had me fascinated.I just have a general medical degree but I love learning. If a issue or anything real peaks my interest I go all in learning about it.