Mass - not egg material

[Chicken_Labyrinth_Seer]

Hi, everyone! I have an odd puzzling issue that has come up.
Couple weeks ago, one of my hens passed. Necropsy revealed leukemia and lymphoma. I am thinking mareks or ALV.
I have 4 other hens.
One has an odd stance and a couple of egg sized lumps under her when I feel her coelem. Took her to the vet, radiographs done, there is a mass.
Decide to do surgery to see if she is backed up with egg material (no shell) or if it's cancer. Instruct vet if it's cancer to put her down during surgery.
Vet does surgery, calls me, says "she is fine, but it wasn't egg material, and I still don't know what is is"

I'm completely confused. Evidently when she went looking for the egg material, she did not check other stuff while in there.
I think maybe I just don't understand, maybe things aren't as visible as I thought they would be.

So I am now wondering what else could this be?
I will speak to the vet tomorrow. We didn't have time to chat today (she is only there for surgery on Sundays). So I will see what this could mean, but I am really confused and thought "surgery" meant I would have an answer.

Vet who performed surgery and necropsy is board certified by the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners in avian specialty and has been running this bird hospital for 30+ years, I do trust she knows what she is doing. I've just never been through anything like this before. She probably has more parrot patients than chickens.

 

[Ducklad]

Opinions:
That would be odd for both hens to pass of cancer, If this one passes. Are they related, or is there an environmental issue? Also you probably need to check the vet and see if they are an avian, farm, or general exotic vet. There are huge differences in the types of veterinary work that each one does, so please check up on her certification.

While the vet was performing surgery, she should have taken a sample of the mass to send it in for testing. That's odd that she wouldn't have done that, and didn't offer any conclusions after a surgery.

Genetics/environmental:
I think it's most likely something like Mareks or ALV, like your saying, because the odds of multiple hens, in a short amount of time (if they aren't related) having/developing cancer in the same area of the body is very unlikely. If they are related it could be genetically passed, but the chances of them both getting it is slim. (although, if it is genetic, it could just take 3 years, or whatever, to show up in the bird itself. that could be part of the gene.)

Call/contact your local pest controls, or places that may offer information about air quality and/or pollutants in the air that could have caused said issues.

This is mainly just my speculations, but I think it's more likely to be a virus than cancer....

 

[Ducklad]

I forgot to add...
If the necropsy was performed by said vet that gave you zero results from the "surgery", I wouldn't trust the results, period.

 

[Chicken_Labyrinth_Seer]

Opinions:
That would be odd for both hens to pass of cancer, If this one passes. Are they related, or is there an environmental issue? Also you probably need to check the vet and see if they are an avian, farm, or general exotic vet. There are huge differences in the types of veterinary work that each one does, so please check up on her certification.

While the vet was performing surgery, she should have taken a sample of the mass to send it in for testing. That's odd that she wouldn't have done that, and didn't offer any conclusions after a surgery.

Genetics/environmental:
I think it's most likely something like Mareks or ALV, like your saying, because the odds of multiple hens, in a short amount of time (if they aren't related) having/developing cancer in the same area of the body is very unlikely. If they are related it could be genetically passed, but the chances of them both getting it is slim. (although, if it is genetic, it could just take 3 years, or whatever, to show up in the bird itself. that could be part of the gene.)

Call/contact your local pest controls, or places that may offer information about air quality and/or pollutants in the air that could have caused said issues.

This is mainly just my speculations, but I think it's more likely to be a virus than cancer....

I will update my post - She is board certified by the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners in avian specialty

 

[Chicken_Labyrinth_Seer]

Opinions:
That would be odd for both hens to pass of cancer, If this one passes. Are they related, or is there an environmental issue? Also you probably need to check the vet and see if they are an avian, farm, or general exotic vet. There are huge differences in the types of veterinary work that each one does, so please check up on her certification.

While the vet was performing surgery, she should have taken a sample of the mass to send it in for testing. That's odd that she wouldn't have done that, and didn't offer any conclusions after a surgery.

Genetics/environmental:
I think it's most likely something like Mareks or ALV, like your saying, because the odds of multiple hens, in a short amount of time (if they aren't related) having/developing cancer in the same area of the body is very unlikely. If they are related it could be genetically passed, but the chances of them both getting it is slim. (although, if it is genetic, it could just take 3 years, or whatever, to show up in the bird itself. that could be part of the gene.)

Call/contact your local pest controls, or places that may offer information about air quality and/or pollutants in the air that could have caused said issues.

This is mainly just my speculations, but I think it's more likely to be a virus than cancer....

Alv causes cancer though and since they live together if one had cancer I think it would make sense that they all have ALV, and will have cancer, or am I wrong? I also am hoping I will know more tomorrow, when we have time to thoroughly discuss her findings.

 

[Ducklad]

That would make sense, I am more knowledgeable in ducks (I owned chickens for a while though). But after some research...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...lly, ALV-A followed by,range between 1 and 2%.
- here's my main article I was reading

The mortality rates among a flock are only 1-2%. It does cause tumors, which in result, can be cancerous. But it doesn't state that all tumors resulting from ALV are in result, cancerous.

From a farming standpoint, she could be saying no results because according to *MY* (check yours) cities laws and regulations, all birds infected and exposed to ALV virus MUST be euthanized. So, she could be sparing you from heartbreak. Again that last statement is a speculation, the rest are facts.

 

[Chicken_Labyrinth_Seer]

That would make sense, I am more knowledgeable in ducks (I owned chickens for a while though). But after some research...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10376345/#:~:text=Traditionally, ALV-A followed by,range between 1 and 2%.
- here's my main article I was reading

The mortality rates among a flock are only 1-2%. It does cause tumors, which in result, can be cancerous. But it doesn't state that all tumors resulting from ALV are in result, cancerous.

From a farming standpoint, she could be saying no results because according to *MY* (check yours) cities laws and regulations, all birds infected and exposed to ALV virus MUST be euthanized. So, she could be sparing you from heartbreak. Again that last statement is a speculation, the rest are facts.

I understand that some vets would do that. I mentioned AL to her when we first began discussing, think she would have said "if we find a bird positive for ALV, we are required to euthanize" in order to let me know. She hasn't said that, but I will specifically ask her today. We have a consult today in a few hours.

She did call me at 9:30 last night. With some additional information and recommendations. She said when she was looking at her reproductive tract, that her gizzard was not where it should be. So, pushed by something. I'm unsure if she has tumours in her digetstive tract or if she is impated with food. Sounds like it could be either. She is also slightly anemic (which by my knowledge is a symptom of leukemia & ALV). She advised she wants to treat with subq fluids, lactulose and potentially tube feed nutritionally since she seems to be a little thinner than she should be. Hopefully I'll know more after our appt in a bit.

I think she will either clear out whatever obstruction she has in her GI tract or we will decide to euthanize if it seems it's not clearing.

Also, wanted to mention -they are all related, all born in March 2021 at the same farm.

 

[Chicken_Labyrinth_Seer]

also wondering how many days post surgery to wait before I should expect her to eat as she would normally. It's been just a couple, surgery was Sunday, still not back to herself. Makes me sad.

 

[Chicken_Labyrinth_Seer]

My sweet hen did not survive. Late Thursday night she passed, aspirated.
Necropsy photos revealed she had a mass in her intestines, she wasn't passing food through her system that's how large the mass was. :'( necropsy results pending but the vet said appears to also be lymphoma. So all of my girls may have ALV or Mareks or REV. :'(