Need Feeding Help

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

If feed is being rationed and isn't always available, then it becomes an unreliable resource so it makes sense that the chickens will overeat to compensate - to load up if they don't know if/when the next feed is coming. But if they can trust that it's always there, they don't need to gorge themselves on it.

If feed is being rationed and isn't always available, then it becomes an unreliable resource so it makes sense that the chickens will overeat to compensate - to load up if they don't know if/when the next feed is coming. But if they can trust that it's always there, they don't need to gorge themselves on it.

Up until the last couple days they have had feed whenever they wanted. It’s only because we switched to crumbles that need soaked to waste less, that we have not had food available all the time.

We are on year 3 of chickens. And they still baffle me at times. Lol I would think this higher protein feed would make them feel fuller.

 

[NatJ]

But I know my leghorns also, white maybe don’t overeat, eat a ton. They will go to bed with such massive hard crops. Even tonight w us guarding two of the younger Sapphire gems to allow them to eat; the full cropped leghorn came over to engorge herself on their feed. Just because it was a new bowl. So while they’re not fat at all, I think the leghorns may eat too much. But they’re so used to it, idk if I can change that.

Of all the breeds, Leghorns would be the ones I worry least about. I'm sure they have a good reason to eat so much.

Are the Leghorns laying more than the other hens? If so, that would be a reason for them to eat a lot. Or if they are not laying yet but are getting ready to lay, they could need extra food then too. A hen's body is busy making egg yolks for some weeks before any eggs actually get laid.

If you had to guard the Leghorns to let them eat in the evening, maybe they were going short earlier in the day. They might just be eating a lot at once, but not more during the course of the day.

 

[NatJ]

Ok here’s the crumbles:
https://tuckermilling.com/product-items/naturecrest-chick-starter-grower/?portfolioCats=93

The layer: https://tuckermilling.com/product-items/naturecrest-layer-pellet/?portfolioCats=93

You can see the ingredients above each also.

Thanks! No, I don't see any particular reason for this, but I'd thought it was at least worth looking.

Yeah, so far they’re eating way more with these crumbles. Which in turn is going to only hurt us because I’m trying to get them a better feed, this costs more than layer & they’re going through this way more than layer. Probably going to have to go back to the Layer.

If you're really trying to save money on feed costs, removing birds will help. So think about whether every bird in the flock needs to be there. (I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't keep them all, just suggesting that you think about that while you are considering feed and costs.)

If the cost of feed vs. eggs is a big factor, the higher protein feed will probably not cause them to lay more eggs, or at least not enough more to notice. But since this is springtime, the longer days should make them lay more eggs than they did in winter, which might help a bit.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

We are on year 3 of chickens. And they still baffle me at times. Lol I would think this higher protein feed would make them feel fuller.

Chickens will eat till they meet their metabolic energy needs, assuming food is available. More active birds will have higher metabolic needs (i.e. free rangers), growing birds have higher metabolic needs, chickens making eggs have higher metabolic needs. Moulting chickens have higher metabolic needs. There may be weather related reasons for increased metabolic needs.

All of which is represented not by the protein content of the feed, but rather by its AMEn number or its mKe/kg or a similar way of estimating, essentially, the useful Calories in a bit of feed. You can have a very high protein feed with a relatively low AMEn - and reasonably expect some birds will "overeat" protein trying to get essential energy. You can have a big AMEn number w/ low protein (think "scratch"). And everything in between.

Here's the issue. AMEn mKe/kg etc numbers don't have to appear on feed bags, and most likely don't. I've only seen them on a few regional mill producer's bags. So there's no way to just look at a bag and know that your chickens are eating more (or less) than expected due to its metabolizable energy content.

and protein is only part of the rough calculation - high protein feeds don't always have high energy. There's a rough calculation that's provided by the Cobb/Vantress people I wrote down somewhere, but its not quick mental math (for most).

 

[NatJ]

Here's the issue. AMEn mKe/kg etc numbers don't have to appear on feed bags, and most likely don't. I've only seen them on a few regional mill producer's bags. So there's no way to just look at a bag and know that your chickens are eating more (or less) than expected due to its metabolizable energy content.

I had wondered about that, but of course it isn't given for these feeds.
I glanced through the ingredients, and it looks the feeds are pretty similar, so I might expect them to have similar energy levels-- but of course "expect" can be a long ways from correct!

The links OP provided:
https://tuckermilling.com/product-items/naturecrest-chick-starter-grower/?portfolioCats=93
https://tuckermilling.com/product-items/naturecrest-layer-pellet/?portfolioCats=93

The chick starter is 18% protein, 4% fat
The layer is 16% protein, 3% fat

The first ingredients of each are:
Chick starter, "Wheat middlings, ground feed wheat, porcine meat and bone meal, heat stabilized rice bran, dehydrated alfalfa meal, fish meal, calcium carbonate, salt"
Layer, "Wheat middlings, calcium carbonate, heat stabilized rice bran, ground feed wheat, dehydrated alfalfa meal, porcine meat and bone meal, rice mill by-product, fish meal, salt"

Given that ingredients are listed in decreasing order by weight, I copied each list up to the point where it said "salt," figuring nothing after that will contribute enough calories to matter.

If anything, I might expect the chick starter (crumbles) to have a little more energy, but I haven't tried to run any numbers to show if that is right or wrong.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

AMEn is Apparent Metaboolizable Energy (nitrogen corrected).

and that Metabolizable Energy estimate formula (mentoned above) is this:

Metabolizable energy (MJ/kg) = 0.01551 × g/kg crude protein + 0.03431 × g/kg crude fat + 0.01669 × g/kg starch + 0.01301 × g/kg sugar

As I said, most people aren't going to do that in their head while standing in the aisle. (Doesn't help that starches and sugars aren't listed on the bag either...)

and in answer (partial) to:

Chick starter, "Wheat middlings, ground feed wheat, porcine meat and bone meal, heat stabilized rice bran, dehydrated alfalfa meal, fish meal, calcium carbonate, salt"
Layer, "Wheat middlings, calcium carbonate, heat stabilized rice bran, ground feed wheat, dehydrated alfalfa meal, porcine meat and bone meal, rice mill by-product, fish meal, salt"

We can't calculate it. In the Starter, by the time you get to the Calcium Carbonate, you are down to about 1.5% (or less) of the total feed weight, because calcium carbonate is about 40% calcium by weight, because the feed targets 0.8% to 1.2% calcium by weight, and because there is a greater quantity of both porcine meat and bone meal (which is itself between about 6% and 12% calcium) and fish meal (around 4% calcium).

In the Layer feed, calcium carbonate is the second ingredient and likely provides almost all of the (minimum 3.8%) calcium in the product. Assume that bag is 9% calcium carbonate by weight.

If they both start with the same amount of wheat middlings (HUGE HUGE) assumption on my part, then the chick starter's ground feed wheat, porcine meat and bone meal, heat stabilized rice bran, dehydrated alfalfa meal, fish meal likely add up to about 9% of the total weight +/-, while they likely together add up to only 2% or so in the layer.

and if we put thetwo numbers we do know - minimum protein, minimum fat for both feeds into the formula, the chick starter has about 18% more energy per unit weight than the layer - which is what you would expect, since starter feeds are high energy, nutrient dense feeds and layer.... isn't.

 

[NatJ]

AMEn is Apparent Metaboolizable Energy (nitrogen corrected).

and that Metabolizable Energy estimate formula (mentoned above) is this:

Metabolizable energy (MJ/kg) = 0.01551 × g/kg crude protein + 0.03431 × g/kg crude fat + 0.01669 × g/kg starch + 0.01301 × g/kg sugar

As I said, most people aren't going to do that in their head while standing in the aisle. (Doesn't help that starches and sugars aren't listed on the bag either...)

and in answer (partial) to:


We can't calculate it. In the Starter, by the time you get to the Calcium Carbonate, you are down to about 1.5% (or less) of the total feed weight, because calcium carbonate is about 40% calcium by weight, because the feed targets 0.8% to 1.2% calcium by weight, and because there is a greater quantity of both porcine meat and bone meal (which is itself between about 6% and 12% calcium) and fish meal (around 4% calcium).

In the Layer feed, calcium carbonate is the second ingredient and likely provides almost all of the (minimum 3.8%) calcium in the product. Assume that bag is 9% calcium carbonate by weight.

If they both start with the same amount of wheat middlings (HUGE HUGE) assumption on my part, then the chick starter's ground feed wheat, porcine meat and bone meal, heat stabilized rice bran, dehydrated alfalfa meal, fish meal likely add up to about 9% of the total weight +/-, while they likely together add up to only 2% or so in the layer.

and if we put thetwo numbers we do know - minimum protein, minimum fat for both feeds into the formula, the chick starter has about 18% more energy per unit weight than the layer - which is what you would expect, since starter feeds are high energy, nutrient dense feeds and layer.... isn't.

I hadn't thought to use the calcium carbonate to help figure out the amounts of the other ingredients. Good point!

Yes, I figured it would be impossible to calculate exactly, but thanks for walking through the amount you could figure. I feel like I learned something here

 

[BlessedChaosHomestead]

Thanks! No, I don't see any particular reason for this, but I'd thought it was at least worth looking.


If you're really trying to save money on feed costs, removing birds will help. So think about whether every bird in the flock needs to be there. (I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't keep them all, just suggesting that you think about that while you are considering feed and costs.)

If the cost of feed vs. eggs is a big factor, the higher protein feed will probably not cause them to lay more eggs, or at least not enough more to notice. But since this is springtime, the longer days should make them lay more eggs than they did in winter, which might help a bit.

We rotate our older girl’s out in the spring. The oldest gets to stay due to being a goody broody momma, 2nd oldest will because is our pet Leghorn. lol

To my knowledge they’re all laying. I was really just trying to help their feathers & keep them healthy.
I don’t like the layer feed when they’re molting as their feather quality is lacking imo.

But due to finances & cost effectiveness, I have went back to the layer. Granted now some seem to be snubbing their noses because it’s not soaked crumbles! but they’ll be fine.
Since we have added some soon to be layers to the group, we are still feeding crumbles in spots too.

Thanks for all the help!

I might try to switch to a higher protein feed in fall though for their molt & see if it helps them.