old chicken recipie/ or help with what to add for them,

[U_Stormcrow]

I didn't respnd to this because its incaluable. Not knowing how much of which (likely variable) meats means the most nutrient dense portion of the diet is a big question mark. While animal protiens are (largely) similar, there remain significant differences between fish carcass (particularly salt/fresh and w or w/o scales), rabbit carcass, and beef/pig carcass.

As to your grains mix? Its glorified scratch to quite good scratch, but still scratch. I'm going to assume you mean (winter) peas, not field peas, and hope you can get yellow rather than green peas (fewer tannins, meaning more tasty, less antinutritional factors). I'm also assuming you are using soft wheat -cheaper, and generally more readily available.

5% of your recipe is buzz words of relatively low nutritional value, often included in certain feed segments for specific purpose - Oregano and thyme are both claimed to have antibacterial and antiparasitic properties (sure, depending on preparation, and dosage, over short time periods - but not in the quantityies included in most feeds), Marigolds are good for coloring egg yolks. Kelp, depending on variety, provides salt and a decent source of some key minerals - which minerals varies by which kelp. Star Anise? Honestly, haven't a clue - its expensive, it makes good mulled cider, never considered it as a feed ingredient.

With those assumptions, we still have some options - fresh alfala or alfalfa hay?

With fresh alfala, you have a very high moisture feed that's likely somewhere between 10 and 11% Crude Protein, around 6% fiber, relatively low fat, grossly deficient in Met, and relatively low in energy overall - I'd expect birds to increase quantities consumed to make up for the energy shortfall (they are pretty good at self regulating, given the chance), which will bring the Lysine close to target and the Threonine borderline acceptable, but Met will still be grossly deficient, and Tryp will be low also (though not grossly).

With alfalfa hay, because so much of its moisture is removed, you are better off. Around 14 -15% protein, around 13% fiber (that's high, and not desired, but not generally conidered dangerously so), still low fat. Your Lys, Thre, and Tryp numbers are all good - but your Met, while definitely better, is still quite low. Around 0.2. The target is 50% higher for an adult laying hen (0.3), and can be 0.4 or higher for meaties and hatchling/juvenile birds generally.

That puts a lot of pressure on the meat offerings, which fresh, are likely 75-80% water, meaning CP numbers in the 16% range give or take for your beef, a bit higher for your rabbit. The fish will depend on the fish....

 

[saysfaa]

...
As to your grains mix? Its glorified scratch to quite good scratch, but still scratch. ..,

Does this matter in this situation? The grains in bagged feed are also scratch when they are not ground and mixed with the other ingredients.

That puts a lot of pressure on the meat offerings, which fresh, are likely 75-80% water, meaning CP numbers in the 16% range give or take for your beef, a bit higher for your rabbit....

I've been meaning to ask ... do you see a difference between feeding water inside food and feeding water via waterers? Dry matter basis is useful in comparing one feed to another and formulated a ratio of feed when some or none of the ingredients are free choice. Otherwise, the chickens just drink less water.

Assuming the moisture content isn't so high that they can't eat enough of it.

 

[MarketGardener]

I didn't respnd to this because its incaluable. Not knowing how much of which (likely variable) meats means the most nutrient dense portion of the diet is a big question mark. While animal protiens are (largely) similar, there remain significant differences between fish carcass (particularly salt/fresh and w or w/o scales), rabbit carcass, and beef/pig carcass.

As to your grains mix? Its glorified scratch to quite good scratch, but still scratch. I'm going to assume you mean (winter) peas, not field peas, and hope you can get yellow rather than green peas (fewer tannins, meaning more tasty, less antinutritional factors). I'm also assuming you are using soft wheat -cheaper, and generally more readily available.

5% of your recipe is buzz words of relatively low nutritional value, often included in certain feed segments for specific purpose - Oregano and thyme are both claimed to have antibacterial and antiparasitic properties (sure, depending on preparation, and dosage, over short time periods - but not in the quantityies included in most feeds), Marigolds are good for coloring egg yolks. Kelp, depending on variety, provides salt and a decent source of some key minerals - which minerals varies by which kelp. Star Anise? Honestly, haven't a clue - its expensive, it makes good mulled cider, never considered it as a feed ingredient.

With those assumptions, we still have some options - fresh alfala or alfalfa hay?

With fresh alfala, you have a very high moisture feed that's likely somewhere between 10 and 11% Crude Protein, around 6% fiber, relatively low fat, grossly deficient in Met, and relatively low in energy overall - I'd expect birds to increase quantities consumed to make up for the energy shortfall (they are pretty good at self regulating, given the chance), which will bring the Lysine close to target and the Threonine borderline acceptable, but Met will still be grossly deficient, and Tryp will be low also (though not grossly).

With alfalfa hay, because so much of its moisture is removed, you are better off. Around 14 -15% protein, around 13% fiber (that's high, and not desired, but not generally conidered dangerously so), still low fat. Your Lys, Thre, and Tryp numbers are all good - but your Met, while definitely better, is still quite low. Around 0.2. The target is 50% higher for an adult laying hen (0.3), and can be 0.4 or higher for meaties and hatchling/juvenile birds generally.

That puts a lot of pressure on the meat offerings, which fresh, are likely 75-80% water, meaning CP numbers in the 16% range give or take for your beef, a bit higher for your rabbit. The fish will depend on the fish....

alfalfa i get in dry bale form, its fresh dark green,
i am adding the grains as i assume they need soem minerals from them and a bit of diversity

''But the push for vegetarian chickens hasn’t been all that great for chickens. In my opinion, feeding them meat scraps was a good use of resources. It would allow a better cycling of unused calories in a form the chickens enjoyed. We would have been better served by focusing more on grass feeding cattle and avoiding the corn and manure diets. What has resulted is that most chicken diets come up short on natural sources of methionine, a critical amino acid plentiful in meat. The usual way most chicken growers deal with this is by supplementing the chickens with synthetic methionine. Thus we’ve arrived at an overly technical solution that depends on a very small number of global suppliers to provide farms with a critical ingredient that is naturally abundant in our existing butchering waste stream.''
how will meth and lyc be low when there overly abundant in meat ? i was told i over met the amino profile before but am i now being told i am not? am confused lol

my 5% was just as its minerals/herbs etc dont need a massive portion but i do agree the amount and quality added in shops is questionable hence why i want to do this myself, i can supply fresh herbs from my garden, dry them and add to mix,

'' rabbit meat contains high essential amino-acid levels (EAA). Compared with other meats, rabbit meat is richer in lysine (2.12 g/100 g), sulfur-containing amino acids (1.10 g/100 g), threonine (2.01 g/100 g), valine (1.19 g/100 g), isoleucine (1.15 g/100 g), leucine (1.73 g/100 g) and phenylalanine (1.04 g/100 g) (''

being as rabbit meat will be my main input, and other meat in left over scrap quantities, ill base my diet on rabbit meat cooked, to remove some fat, and make the meat easier to pick at. i will base the diet off the rabbit meat,

here is a amino profile for rabbit https://fitaudit.com/food/148083/amino
Rabbit meat and chicken meat are both very high in protein and have rich essential amino acid profiles. However, rabbit meat is 1.2 times richer in proteins compared to chicken meat

According to the USDA, every 3 ounces of rabbit meat has the following nutritional value:


Amount

• Calories: 147
• Total Fat: 3 g
• Saturated Fat: 0.9 g
• Polyunsaturated Fat: 0.6 g
• Monosaturated Fat: 0.8 g
• Cholesterol: 105 mg
• Sodium: 38 g
• Potassium: 292 mg
• Total Carbohydrate: 0 g
• Dietary Fiber: 0 g
• Sugar: 0 g
• Protein: 28 g
• Vitamin A
• Calcium
• Vitamin D
• Cobalamin
• Vitamin C
• Iron
• Vitamin B6
• Magnesium and many more lol

Does this matter in this situation? The grains in bagged feed are also scratch when they are not ground and mixed with the other ingredients.

I've been meaning to ask ... do you see a difference between feeding water inside food and feeding water via waterers? Dry matter basis is useful in comparing one feed to another and formulated a ratio of feed when some or none of the ingredients are free choice. Otherwise, the chickens just drink less water.

Assuming the moisture content isn't so high that they can't eat enough of it.

i am curious how this affects it too, my foods always wet ? the chickens wouldn't eat dry grain normally would they ? i am to sprout and ferment them too as its more bioavalible

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Does this matter in this situation? The grains in bagged feed are also scratch when they are not ground and mixed with the other ingredients.

If the available protein from other sources is good enough, No, it doesn't matter. Its like some of the old recipes you dug up which are a two part feeding program, one part a low protein forage, the other part a high protein nutritional core.

I've been meaning to ask ... do you see a difference between feeding water inside food and feeding water via waterers? Dry matter basis is useful in comparing one feed to another and formulated a ratio of feed when some or none of the ingredients are free choice. Otherwise, the chickens just drink less water.

Assuming the moisture content isn't so high that they can't eat enough of it.

I don't. In fact I often feed my ground commercial stuff as a wet mash. Anecdotally, it seems to help with pasty butt in my littles. It also helps control waste, similar to pelleting. Maybe it helps with heat management when my tmps are above 90 day after day, and I'm using 64 degree well water.

But it also spoils/rots/fuzzies/or ferments much faster that way, so not great if you are premixing (unless you've got a controlled ferment going to help reduce the chance of "bad" colonizing. That's more effort than I am willing to invest, but it works well for many.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

alfalfa i get in dry bale form, its fresh dark green,
i am adding the grains as i assume they need soem minerals from them and a bit of diversity

''But the push for vegetarian chickens hasn’t been all that great for chickens. In my opinion, feeding them meat scraps was a good use of resources. It would allow a better cycling of unused calories in a form the chickens enjoyed. We would have been better served by focusing more on grass feeding cattle and avoiding the corn and manure diets. What has resulted is that most chicken diets come up short on natural sources of methionine, a critical amino acid plentiful in meat. The usual way most chicken growers deal with this is by supplementing the chickens with synthetic methionine. Thus we’ve arrived at an overly technical solution that depends on a very small number of global suppliers to provide farms with a critical ingredient that is naturally abundant in our existing butchering waste stream.''
how will meth and lyc be low when there overly abundant in meat ? i was told i over met the amino profile before but am i now being told i am not? am confused lol

my 5% was just as its minerals/herbs etc dont need a massive portion but i do agree the amount and quality added in shops is questionable hence why i want to do this myself, i can supply fresh herbs from my garden, dry them and add to mix,

'' rabbit meat contains high essential amino-acid levels (EAA). Compared with other meats, rabbit meat is richer in lysine (2.12 g/100 g), sulfur-containing amino acids (1.10 g/100 g), threonine (2.01 g/100 g), valine (1.19 g/100 g), isoleucine (1.15 g/100 g), leucine (1.73 g/100 g) and phenylalanine (1.04 g/100 g) (''

being as rabbit meat will be my main input, and other meat in left over scrap quantities, ill base my diet on rabbit meat cooked, to remove some fat, and make the meat easier to pick at. i will base the diet off the rabbit meat,

here is a amino profile for rabbit https://fitaudit.com/food/148083/amino
Rabbit meat and chicken meat are both very high in protein and have rich essential amino acid profiles. However, rabbit meat is 1.2 times richer in proteins compared to chicken meat

According to the USDA, every 3 ounces of rabbit meat has the following nutritional value:


Amount

• Calories: 147
• Total Fat: 3 g
• Saturated Fat: 0.9 g
• Polyunsaturated Fat: 0.6 g
• Monosaturated Fat: 0.8 g
• Cholesterol: 105 mg
• Sodium: 38 g
• Potassium: 292 mg
• Total Carbohydrate: 0 g
• Dietary Fiber: 0 g
• Sugar: 0 g
• Protein: 28 g
• Vitamin A
• Calcium
• Vitamin D
• Cobalamin
• Vitamin C
• Iron
• Vitamin B6
• Magnesium and many more lol

i am curious how this affects it too, my foods always wet ? the chickens wouldn't eat dry grain normally would they ? i am to sprout and ferment them too as its more bioavalible

I only calculated your grain mix. I didn't calculate with the meat addition because I didn't know what meats, in what quantities, and whether fresh (in which case its 75-80% water) or dried to some extent. and again, because different meats, while similar, have differing CP and AA profiles when comparing fish to rabbit to pork or beef.

And yes, your birds will eat dry grains too.

 

[saysfaa]

That makes sense. This partially the differences in location and systems.

I don't worry about rot or fuzzies. Most of my meat feeding is when it is too cold for them to find many bugs or creepy crawlies so is essentially refrigerated. The rest is either offered in small enough quantities at a time that they clean it up quickly or I wait until they've eaten what they want and moved off. Or I come back but I don't like doing that because they kick the leaves over it and then I find fish heads, turkey spines, and such by stepping on them.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I don't worry about rot or fuzzies. Most of my meat feeding is when it is too cold for them to find many bugs or creepy crawlies so is essentially refrigerated. The rest is either offered in small enough quantities at a time that they clean it up quickly or I wait until they've eaten what they want and moved off. Or I come back but I don't like doing that because they kick the leaves over it and then I find fish heads, turkey spines, and such by stepping on them.

A good system. I also use time limited feeding opportunities to control the potential of unwanteds. (also makes my feeding areas less attractive to vermin)

 

[saysfaa]

alfalfa i get in dry bale form, its fresh dark green,
...

Fresh and green are important. Leafy is also. I don't know your background so don't know whether to assume that. Ideally, it would be cut earlier than for cattle because cattle need it at least a little stemmy to stimulate their rumen. And it is more economical to wait until until the flower buds begin to form (that is the intersection of feed value for most livestock, palatability, yield, and harvesting costs). Chickens will eat the leaves and maybe a few of the youngest, softest stems. Less than ideal will still be good for chickens as long as it is still green and leafy.

i am curious how this affects it too, my foods always wet ? the chickens wouldn't eat dry grain normally would they ? i am to sprout and ferment them too as its more bioavalible

I've fed only wet for months at a time - mostly soaking rather than fermenting; I never noticed any problems.

I don't bother sprouting or fermenting. I did try fermenting a couple of times for a several weeks each time to try it. I might sprout some if I didn't have enough fresh green food from kitchen to share with them. I think at least a little fresh food is important but otherwise, dry is bioavailable enough in this sort of system. It might be of a little benefit in a standard bagged only diet.

They love dry grains. They love mashes too, fermented or not.

 

[MarketGardener]

Fresh and green are important. Leafy is also. I don't know your background so don't know whether to assume that. Ideally, it would be cut earlier than for cattle because cattle need it at least a little stemmy to stimulate their rumen. And it is more economical to wait until until the flower buds begin to form (that is the intersection of feed value for most livestock, palatability, yield, and harvesting costs). Chickens will eat the leaves and maybe a few of the youngest, softest stems. Less than ideal will still be good for chickens as long as it is still green and leafy.


I've fed only wet for months at a time - mostly soaking rather than fermenting; I never noticed any problems.

I don't bother sprouting or fermenting. I did try fermenting a couple of times for a several weeks each time to try it. I might sprout some if I didn't have enough fresh green food from kitchen to share with them. I think at least a little fresh food is important but otherwise, dry is bioavailable enough in this sort of system. It might be of a little benefit in a standard bagged only diet.

They love dry grains. They love mashes too, fermented or not.

yeah we limited grass as everyone gave trimmings and this lead to death in chickens took a while to find that out,
i run allotments so i can do the greens, they are in a penned barn style system atm since the bird flue crap, my grass was eaten in days by them lol this is our current alfalfa supplier alfalfa and micronised peas peas then ofc wheat and barley

ive even tried to look for any feed that can help me been to local stores the lot, phones companies too, all i am told is that my cornish wants ZERO corn and its in every feed as a filler to 10% pfft,
we avoid soy but honestly thats easier to avoid the corn is stuck, and problem is he puts the fat on FAST and the other thing is when he has corn its known in his breed to dull his feathers down and make him loook rough, aswel as eye ring formation, so its obviously not good,

so my last option is to make it myself, grow my grains for them etc, i cant grow enough to last winter so is why i need to make sure they have a good free choise grain to pick and forrage at,

meaty mornings, there loveing that! and atm im throwing them cabbages and things to peck at, and a few wheat grains i have , i dotn feel they are getting enough form that..or i am worried there not ( thats based off trying the joe saltin feed only last year, but with no meat ) would have been different, i just dont wana harm them, but i need to supply them food!

there less agressive lay about and dust bath all day now lol aslong as they have water there happy but that doesnt mean there not getting everything they need? or toomuch they need?

 

[Perris]

pre 20th cent chickens did well on meat , scraps and carcasses, being the garbage warriors they clean up what the find, siince reading stuff on here ive been throwing them an animal carcass to find them happy content , no fighting, quiet, nothing bad there happy as, they stil want the green scrap i throw at em . and there rummaging and digging eating grit more , when i grain fed they stood at the gate trying to escape and grab everything they could, now.. i could let them walk through the allotment veg no worries its changed everything ive known about chickens , ive had them 15 years now, all different feeds, trials the lot scrap feeders whatever , they were always greedy ''chickens'' thats how i saw them , i have wondered dont they get bored watching me at the gate ALL DAY!! only now have i seen them go be chickens lay bathing sleeping but laying as a flock and not watching for the next scrap,

https://dr.lib.iastate.edu/entities/publication/7b965443-b658-4f35-a859-fcd14f80224f good read

they still need some bits besides meat, and as i have no grass for them until next year i have to supplement them more than just a carcass,

so is there a calc i can use and see ?

my main amino acids will come from Meat, left over chicken /beef left overs n scraps/ rabbit and rabbit scraps, fish skins and heads ground up or fermented (hydrolysate) proteins will be high,
i dont want too much protein to make problems that way so i figure i need a scratch grain to ferment and roll for them ?

do i just make a basic one as they have most supplied? my main addition will be alfalfa , i can serve it wet or make it into a meal to mix in at feeding time as it stinks to ferment,


peas 15%
wheat 15%
barley 15%
oats 15%
alfalfa grass 35 %

extras
marrigolds , kelp
Oregano , Thyme , Rosemary , Star Anise
Bacillus subtilis , from fermentation and others, 5%

the idea is to sprout and ferment grains, and leave a tray out available after they had a rabbit in the morning, i plan to cook meat as it stops it spoiling and sticking to everything , but i wont object to them having some raw too,

the idea is they will hunt in the morning early getting bugs n mice etc any fresh kills left behind, then spend the day roaming fields eating grass and bits so im trying to replicate it lol

Responding by request, albeit late to this because I have been laid low with a virus; turning around now.

Percentages of this that or the other only really make sense if you know and control all elements of the diet. As soon as an unknown element in unknown quantity enters the picture - as it does the moment you chuck some leftovers in the run or let your chickens forage, and they start nibbling bits of this and that, and catching and eating this and that - the percentages that matter (the minute amounts of essential amino acid x,y or z, or vitamin p, q, or r, that everyone is fussing about as per whatever the current trend is) - go to pot.

My advice is to let them forage on whatever you've got available, offer plenty of variety of fresh real foods, including meat, fish, dairy, and / or insect protein (i.e. don't force your chickens to be vegans), and let them select what they want to eat. They choose more wisely than we do. Don't worry; they'll be fine.