Pine and Cedar shavings are dangerous

[Nslangton]

Cedar is bad, but not pine. I have spent thousands of dollars and countless hours researching bedding options due to owning horses with severe allergy problems. I have also worked closely with my vets and also those at the University of Penn and Spectrum Labs, Inc. to develop the best program for all of our animals with allergy issues. Large Flake kiln dried shavings are the best option. We brooded our chicks on towels and did not switch to shavings until they were a few weeks old. I use pine shavings for all of our animals, including several litters of puppies and have never had a problem. I will lightly mist the stalls and coop with water which helps a great deal with dust. We also clean the stalls and coop every day and remove all bedding weekly and replace with new shavings. Ventilation is key!!!!!.
Ammonia fumes will cause a much greater respiratory problem then the dust from shavings. Any wet bedding that is not removed will lead to molds and other allergens that will also cause respiratory distress. All bedding has pros and cons and I have tried them all, and have had the best success with kiln dried pine large flake bedding.

 

[SleepyOwl]

From the book City Chicks "In a confined space like a brooder, using pine or cedar bedding will give your young babies phenol exposure that can result in respiratory problems later." They go on to say that pine is probably fine for adults, and they use some in their coops, but think there have been problems with some batches of chicks that they have raised, so they no longer use it.

I don't remember if it was that book or another, but it said that the authors used pine shavings, not worrying about it, until they almost lost a batch of chicks who were having sever respitory issues. They switched out the pine for something else, and they got better right away.

Just not worth the risk to me. I like the sand idea in the brooder!

 

[jessiduck]

I just ordered a coop made of cheaper cedar for my ducks and chickens....is that safe???

 

[rikithemonk]

I just ordered a coop made of cheaper cedar for my ducks and chickens....is that safe???

That's a tricky question. It depends a lot on the design of the coop. Some coops are almost all chicken wire which makes them all airflow. Some coops are completely enclose with only minimal venting. The cedar stench in these would build up and be quite overpowering. If its a very aromatic ceder and a small enclosed coop, I would expect respiratory problems.

Just my 2 cents

Riki

 

[cgmccary]

This argument has been hashed out before. I have always used pine shavings with great success with both chicks and adult birds & see it as a bio-friendly way of keeping the external parasites in check. Pine shavings is the primary bedding in my brooder pens (with a layer of sand and DE and then lime under that). What is important is to keep your brooders or brooder pens clean and dry. In my large coops, I use a lot of pine straw/needles which I have in abundance.

I cannot say the same thing about hay though. I love the smell of fresh, new hay; however, on occasion when I have used excess hay or straw in the coop, I seem to invite the mites. I have also used cedar shavings with adult birds for their nest boxes for years & I put in the bottom of boxes when I take birds to show (so adult bird is closed up in a box with cedar shavings-- had no problem there either). The cedar shavings you buy at the store in the bags too is kiln dried but I would not use with young chicks. Cedar wood is wonderful for building coops, barns, etc. Both pine and cedar are good insect retardants (including mites, lice, ticks, chiggers and fleas). I use a cedar oil spray on my cows instead of insecticides. I spray the cedar oil spray on my cow daily in Spring, Summer & Fall to discourage flies. Also, I use a solar fly trap and those fly-larvae eatings wasps (put out once a month).

With any kind of bedding, the key is to clean it out and put in fresh bedding -- this would go for whether its dirt, pine, cedar or hay. All of it gets soiled & smells which is what is harmful. I intend to continue to use pine shavings.

Lastly, as Speckledhen says, chicks need no bedding at first because they will eat it & need to learn what food is, so sprinkle their crunbles on a napkined floor for the first 2-3 days -- unless they are with a mother hen, then I just put them right in the pine shavings as she will show them what to eat and how to drink (I don't put any stones in waterers with hens either because they show them how to drink). Spend your money as you will, butAspen shavings, based upon what is available around here, are outrageously priced.

 

[jessiduck]

That's a tricky question. It depends a lot on the design of the coop. Some coops are almost all chicken wire which makes them all airflow. Some coops are completely enclose with only minimal venting. The cedar stench in these would build up and be quite overpowering. If its a very aromatic ceder and a small enclosed coop, I would expect respiratory problems.

Just my 2 cents

Riki

Well, it's a large cedar wood dog house that has a vented roof and plexiglass windows....so I don't think it should be aproblem since its very cheap quality wood-good enough to keep predators out though!

 

[speckledhen]

Sleepy Owl, have you ever had chickens or are you just going by what someone said in a book? Just wondering. No one using good quality dry pine shavings should ever have a problem.


If you don't ventilate the area properly, you will have issues with ANYTHING, including aspen and hay, but it's not the material so much as the moisture held within it and the resulting ammonia. Trust me, folks have been using pine shavings for many, many years. They are fine! If you choose to go with aspen, IF you can find it in sufficient quantities, you will spend way more $$$ than you need to, but it's your money.

 

[donrae]

I think rikithemonk had a good point also--space is key. Sleepyowl mentioned a confined space like a brooder, and I know brooders have to be smallish due to their nature, but aquariums and those tiny rubbermaid totes are bad, I think they confine not only anything the bedding gives off but all the dust the chicks themselves generate. I see so many folks on here keeping chicks several weeks old in a brooder that may have been appropriate for day olds, but they haven't moved them to a larger area. No wonder they get sick, no matter what they use.

I'm a pine shavings/sawdust/wood chip and hay girl, myself.

 

[SleepyOwl]

Sleepy Owl, have you ever had chickens or are you just going by what someone said in a book? Just wondering. No one using good quality dry pine shavings should ever have a problem.


If you don't ventilate the area properly, you will have issues with ANYTHING, including aspen and hay, but it's not the material so much as the moisture held within it and the resulting ammonia. Trust me, folks have been using pine shavings for many, many years. They are fine! If you choose to go with aspen, IF you can find it in sufficient quantities, you will spend way more $$$ than you need to, but it's your money.

Nope, no chickens, and yes I read it from books. That is why I mentioned that I read it in books.

I am just saying there could be an issue with chicks according to some people, and it isn't worth the risk for me. I don't go for the "I have always done it that way so it must be ok" theories. I bet 98% of the time it will be just fine, but I have read of multiple situations where it was an issue, so why risk it? I will probably use pine in my coop, but I am going to avoid it with my babies.

 

[speckledhen]

Even a brooder should have ventilation, though, remember. A brooder shouldn't be a closed up, confined space, not enough so that fumes overtake the chicks. Even small chicks need ventilation (not drafts, ventilation up over their heads).

This is one of the main causes of issues with chickens, ventilation. Folks tend to close it off, thinking they're keeping the chickens warmer, when all they are doing is helping moisture from poop and respiration build up and keeping the bedding damp. Even in the dead of winter, chicks and chickens need air flow. With good air flow, even small chicks are okay with dry pine bedding. But it's up to you if you want to spend three times as much for aspen.

It's good to see folks wanting to do right by their birds, Sleepy Owl. I don't take issue with you over that! I've seen too many who did NO research, didn't take a moment's thought to their welfare, and lost all their birds due to complete negligence. I do love to see people doing their homework before they get chicks! You'll continue to learn every year you have them, too, trust me!!