Questions about medicated feed for baby chicks.

[Nancy Kay Clark]

The babies I ordered will not be vaccinated for coccidiosis, so I've read it might be a good idea to feed them chick feed that has been medicated with amprol to help prevent coccidiosis. I found an organic feed that I am thinking of using, but it is not medicated. Here are my questions:

1. Would it be enough to include the medicated feed as a portion of their diet (say about 1/4 or 1/2), or does it need to be the primary feed?
2. Is there an alternate method for providing amprol in their diet?
3. How risky is it to not medicate them? I do understand that I need to keep their brooder very clean and dry, but will that be enough?

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Your profile info does not say where you live. I'm in the North. I don't need medicated feed. In most areas you don't either. If you are in an area of prevalent cocci or you are using the same run with past outbreaks then certainly you want medicated feed. Otherwise you are paying $1-1.50 more per bag than non medicated for something that can not be eaten by your layers.

ETA- I have an ongoing flock, rotation and new hatches every year. I don't want to segregate feed as it's easier to feed them all from the same bag. I have no need for medicated chick starter. It's likely you don't either. In this I feed the entire flock from one bag. Supplement calcium to layers by tossing down handful of oyster shell. But the entire flock can eat what I provide. It's simply changed by crumble when I'm hatching chicks to pellet form feed when those chicks are old enough to take pellet. The longer I'm at this the more I realize they can "take it" earlier and earlier than I initially thought. 8-10 weeks of age was what I read back nearly a decade ago to start chicks on pellet feed. Well, I've found it's much sooner than that. I'm currently half that initial estimate.

In summary- I feed what the entire flock can consume. Find no need for medicated feed in my area (state, county) or specific run. I feed what is considered an all flock feed with oyster shell on the side for layers when their shells get thin. In mid summer their shells are not thin so don't supply it. My feed must be fresh, 20% protein or more and that's it for requirements. When I'm hatching all feeders have crumble and when the youngest batch is around 4 weeks age they all get pellet form feed. For me the freshest and cheapest "all flock" pellet feed is turkey/gamebird finisher.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

If you want to use a medicated feed that has amprolium, it needs to be the entire intake to be effective.
I don't find it risky at all. I never feed medicated feed. It is about how you manage your birds. Keep bedding bone dry, keep feeders at least half full and disinfect any equipment you bring into the brooder. That would be things like feeders, water founts, heat plates, etc..
The eimeria protozoa coccidia, must have a moist environment to complete their life cycle. Having dry bedding works to that end. Keeping feeders full encourages the chicks to get their food there rather than picking up any potential oocysts by picking in the bedding.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Would it be enough to include the medicated feed as a portion of their diet (say about 1/4 or 1/2), or does it need to be the primary feed?

As Canoe explained, no. It is not about how much is in one bite, it's how many total grams they eat in a day and even that is averaged out over a few days. The dosage in the feed is what they need if that feed is all they eat.

Is there an alternate method for providing amprol in their diet?

Corid, a medicine used to treat Cocci, is Amprolium. The dosage on the bottle for treatment is a lot more than you need for prevention. I do not know what the preventative dosage would be.

How risky is it to not medicate them? I do understand that I need to keep their brooder very clean and dry, but will that be enough?

I wrote this a while back about medicated feed and Coccidiosis. It is long and the question I was answering was a bit different but I think the basics are there for you to make an informed decision

First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there mostly for broilers that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprol is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci. Little bitty tiny baby chicks can develop that immunity easier than older chickens.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. To provide a place for that slightly damp poop, I keep a square of plywood in the dry brooder and let the poop build up on that. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Here's a little antidote on feed. My local mill has suppliers all over New England, Eastern New York, Pennsylvania then the supply skips all the way down to most of Florida. This from my local mill.

They have all the different bags to say what feed is for what bird at what age. If you look at the ingredients label on that plethora of options you find nearly 90% are exactly the same feed but in a different bag or form (crumble or pellet). They must use those bags saying - meat bird grower, non medicated chick starter, gamebird finisher and so forth to compete with the larger suppliers that push ignorance to sell the same feed for more money.

Look at a random company like Purina. They charge more for calcium added for layers yet reduce the main cost of protein in feed. This is more in their pocket. Then the idea of skipping that to use all flock feed came about from forums educating like this one. Purina then came out with a "all flock" feed. It say's it right on the label! How convenient for the ignorant consumer! Just pay 1.50-2.00 more for the same feed and it's on the bag you can feed it to the entire flock....

 

[rosemarythyme]

1. No point in feeding them organic if you're also feeding conventional medicated. And as others have pointed out, the medicated feed needs to be the primary feed in order for them to get enough amprolium.

2. If coccidiosis is a concern, then keep a bottle of Corid on hand. You may never need it but if you do, you'll be able to start dosing them right away.

3. As far as risk... my first group of chicks (raised indoors in constantly cleaned brooder) had coccidiosis. But I haven't vaccinated/offered medicated feed to subsequent chicks. I also no longer use an indoor brooder - my chicks now are raised outdoors, on the ground, rain or shine, but none of the ones raised outside have gotten it. So there's no guarantees that a "clean and dry" brooder will prevent it, or that a brooder that never gets cleaned out will cause them to get sick.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

On that note, some will put soil with grass clumps into the brooder. This way the chicks are exposed slowly to the soil at an early age. Build resistance to cocci if it's at high levels in your area. The chicks pluck away at the clod and grass and when you clean the brooder add another clod of soil with weeds/grass attached.

 

[45lk9p459gm-w]

Now that I'm all confused ..... again. (and yes it's an old thread ... I know)

I will have 10, one day old White Leghorn layers coming home May 3 and I have some questions on feed.

1. Medicated or not - I live in East Texas and I think y’all have answered this question already. Am I correct that medicated feed is not necessary?

2. I was planning on using Purina chick/starter crumbles for layers that is a complete feed. Being lazy I figured it would be easier to keep my new employees healthy and laying if I gave them everything they need out of one bag … but Egg Head or someone up there has knocked that little thought askew. Other than costing a little more per bag, is there any difference in feeding them everything from one bag or offering the grit, oyster shell and things separately?

 

[rosemarythyme]

1. Medicated is not necessary.

2. Commercial feed IS complete feed, but grit is not feed and has to be purchased separately. Same with oyster shell (layer feed has an average amount of calcium added, but some birds may require more than average to maintain egg shell quality). Grit and oyster shell should be offered separately regardless of what feed you get.

 

[Ridgerunner]

1. I agree. Medicated feed is not necessary, I don't use it. It does not hurt, but it is not necessary. If I had a history of Coccidiosis problems I'd probably use it, but I don't that problem the way I raise them.

2. I looked for something called "Purina chick/starter crumbles for layers" and could not find it. I think you are talking about Purina Start & Grow which has an 18% protein level and calcium between 0.75% and 1.25%. Nutritionally that feed contains everything you need for a backyard flock or leghorns that will be a laying flock as long as that feed is all you feed them.

They need a balanced diet and Start & Grow has everything in the right proportions. If you feed them a lot of treats you can mess up that balance, so the general suggestion is to keep everything else to less than 10% of their total diet so you keep that balance. A rule of thumb for that is only feed them what of other stuff they can clean up in about 10 to 15 minutes. That maintains a balanced diet. The chicks do not need treats but many people really like to feed treats. Just don't overdo it. Treats are anything other than their regular feed.

Chicks need a certain amount of calcium in their diet for growth and body maintenance. The Start & Grow provides that at around 1%. Hens that are laying eggs need a lot more calcium to make the egg shells. Layer provides that at about a 4% calcium content. Again, if you feed a lot of low calcium treats they may not get enough calcium, especially laying hens. So many of us feed oyster shell or some other calcium supplement on the side so the ones that need extra calcium can get it if they need it.

Studies have shown that growing chicks that eat the amount of calcium in Layer feed can have internal organ problems or even skeletal issues. Too much of a good thing is not necessarily good. Since I almost always have juveniles in my flock I never feed Layer with it's high calcium content. I offer oyster shell on the side so the ones that need the calcium can eat it. The ones that don't need it don't don't eat enough to harm themselves. I feed everyone the same thing, adults and chicks. When I have young chicks they get a Starter feed with higher protein levels. When the chicks are older they all get a Grower feed with slightly reduced protein levels.

This is where it really gets confusing. We all have our own personal preferences. Some people like to feed a higher level of protein than I do. I prefer a meat based protein, others don't. There are many other personal preferences that show up. That's one reason you can see so many different opinions on here, we each have our own personal preferences. Some of that is that we each have our own unique experiences. We keep them for different goals in different conditions, of course we will have different experiences. Some of that is from what we read, not experience based. Some of that is that it just the way I am. That's a minefield for people just starting out. They expect us to all agree. We don't. It's not that there is just one way to do it where every other way is wrong. It's more that there are a lot of different way that work. There might be something unique where one way is better for you than others, but that doesn't mean that in other conditions other ways are wrong.

Chickens do not have teeth so they eat small rocks to keep in their gizzard to help grind stuff up. In the US, we call that Grit. If they are allowed access to the ground in East Texas they will peck at the ground. When they do that they are getting grit among other things. If all they eat is chicken feed they do not need grit. Crumbles and pellets have already been ground up so when they get wet with digestive juices they fall part. There is a myth on this forum that chicken feed contains grit. I emailed Purina and asked them to be sure. Nope, chicken feed does not contain grit.

If chicks or chickens eat things that need to be ground up they need grit. That includes green stuff like grass and other plants, grains, hard shelled bugs and all kinds of creepy crawlies that they love. if they have access to the ground they'll find their own. You should be able to buy grit at the feed store. That's going to be granite, screened to get the right size at a granite quarry. For chicks get the chick size.

We tend to make this a lot more complicated than it really is, especially when we throw in all our personal preferences. They will do fine on chick starter. If you feed them anything else keep it to moderate levels and give them grit.