Serious Inquiry about Ermine-Exchequer- Etc Genetics

[RememberTheWay]

I am very interested in breeding Ermine Ameraucanas. I have been reading A LOT. Recently I saw something about a proposal to the SOP regarding Ermines and it was mentioned that they may alternatively be accepted at Exchequer instead of Ermines because the pattern already exist in other breeds as "Exchequer". Example Leghorns and Serama's.

Question one- are there any other breeds that also have this pattern available?

I am aware of ermine, leghorn, Serama's, and Erminnette's (the breed)

Question 2- Can someone explain to me the genetics of the Ermine coloring please- as in if I wanted to start from scratch how would that be accomplished?

I've seen it theorized that Ermine Ameraucana's are dominant white and black crossed to create Ermine (the theory being that Ermine white Ameraucanas are somehow a different dominant white then a leghorn dominant white) I do not particularly understand this or why it's been proposed especially considering that Ermine dominant whites still have the same traits as a leg horn dominant white (beak and shank colors altered due to the gene) AND that a similar pattern actually exist in leghorns already. Anyways- it's also highly discouraged in these groups to use a dominant white leghorn to bred in dominant white to a line of Ameraucana's. I can't wrap my head around this either.

I had it explained to me once that leghorns would cause shank color issues in your line, but dominant white Ameraucanas are also an unrecognized color as well due to the shank and beak color.

Question 3- Can anyone think of a suitable breed to use to start a line of Ermine Ameraucana's? I already have an Ermine Ameraucana and purchased several very pricey true Ameraucana chicks this yr that I'm currently growing out. My questions are more out of curiosity, but I may be inspired to start a line anyways.

What I see happening on the group is that that everyone is being encouraged to buy starter birds from the same breeders, who actually all trace back to Becky Pelton anyways. My next question is - 4- Wouldn't it do the variety as a whole a service for a few breeders to start lines from "scratch" instead of everyone sourcing birds back to the same flock? Seriously asking?

Photo for attention

 

[SourRoses]

I don't know if this is a serious answer... but I've seen a bit of debate hereabouts as to what makes Exchequer vs Ermines.

There is a version of the Mottled gene which has been referred to as "Hysterical" mottling. It is highly irregular in expression, without the even spots, and sometimes big splotches, but breeds true with all the offspring having some version of spotting. I think it's really pretty.

With Paint (dom white X black), breeding true seems to be a problem. Subsequent generations would yield some white chicks. I'm not sure if an organization as picky as the Ameraucana breeders would ever allow a color that doesn't breed true.
It can be difficult with Paint to get to a point where the birds are not mostly white with a few black specks. Everyone prefers the higher contrast birds, like you see in many Paint Silkies. There are many genes that control that expression, so starting over with Paints sounds like a long road.
I bred some Paints from Leghorns unintentionally, and both they and their offspring were all kinda boring white with a few specks. At least I didn't get leaky ones that came out streaked with yellow.

I raised some Mottled Ameraucana (regular mottled) with the intent to breed them, and joined the Mottled AM FB group.
They had such problems with fertility (rooster side) that I had to give up. Others have had the same issue.
All of those breeders are concerned about the mottled effect on shank color. They don't think the Ameraucana rulers would ever approve of spotty legs. I think they're really cute.

 

[Amer]

Recently I saw something about a proposal to the SOP regarding Ermines and it was mentioned that they may alternatively be accepted at Exchequer instead of Ermines because the pattern already exist in other breeds as "Exchequer". Example Leghorns and Serama's.

They should get them accepted as paint, not Exchequer! Exchequer is mottling.
I don’t know why people insist on calling paint ermine.

I'm not sure if an organization as picky as the Ameraucana breeders would ever allow a color that doesn't breed true.

Blue?


Anyway, to breed Ermine Ameraucana, I would recommend using either dominant white or Ermine Ameraucanas. Leghorns will introduce the yellow leg gene.


What allows for the big black spots is the amount of melanizers they have which is why a Leghorn crossed with any old black bird won’t do.

 

[SourRoses]

Blue?

I thought people say that Blue does breed true because Splash is just two copies of Blue. I don't know, I've never tried to breed BBS.

So glad you know which is Ermine, Exchequer! I wonder who came up with these names?

 

[Amer]

I thought people say that Blue does breed true because Splash is just two copies of Blue. I don't know, I've never tried to breed BBS.

So glad you know which is Ermine, Exchequer! I wonder who came up with these names?

And white is two copies of dominant white.
There are lots of breeds that have blue accepted but not splash.

Eta: producing whites with washed out legs can be avoided by crossing paint to black but I’m not sure if paint to paint breeding is necessary to maintain even spots.

 

[Amer]

So glad you know which is Ermine, Exchequer! I wonder who came up with these names?

Me too, I would like to have a word with them.

 

[RememberTheWay]

They should get them accepted as paint, not Exchequer! Exchequer is mottling.
I don’t know why people insist on calling paint ermine.

Blue?


Anyway, to breed Ermine Ameraucana, I would recommend using either dominant white or Ermine Ameraucanas. Leghorns will introduce the yellow leg gene.


What allows for the big black spots is the amount of melanizers they have which is why a Leghorn crossed with any old black bird won’t do.

Please don't take my interpretation of what I've read there to mean that everyone there believes that. But I did read something along those lines. I thought that Exchequer looked different, but I've had a hard time finding any real information online about that particular pattern and how it's bred.

It's all very confusing really.

And the group seems very divided.
On lots of issues.

And from what I understand Yellow legs are already an issue with Ermines and the resulting chicks so it's there.

 

[Amer]

Please don't take my interpretation of what I've read there to mean that everyone there believes that. But I did read something along those lines. I thought that Exchequer looked different, but I've had a hard time finding any real information online about that particular pattern and how it's bred.

It's all very confusing really.

And the group seems very divided.
On lots of issues.

And from what I understand Yellow legs are already an issue with Ermines and the resulting chicks so it's there.

Well in that case, there is no harm in using Leghorns as long as you can identify and eliminate the “pingle” combs (single/pea heterozygotes.)

 

[RememberTheWay]

Me too, I would like to have a word with them.

I do know that the reason paint was not suggested is because paint typical is splotchy and erratic not evenly distributed and it is encouraged to have large paint spots for those patterns. The pattern proposed for the Ermines are evenly distributed.

From what I can see of the group they seem highly divided and the person that runs the group seems to be on a different page then the woman who actually started Ermines to begin with. I don't particularly care for the name but I do love the pattern.

And I would like to add- that I'm not incapable of learning. Most of you are leaps and bounds ahead of me in all this. I just want to understand what exactly is going on with this pattern. The breeding chart does look like a paint chart, but when Exchequer was mentioned in a post, and I tried to research how it started and how it's bred I had a hard time finding anything. I spent a few hours looking too.

 

[RememberTheWay]

I do know that the reason paint was not suggested is because paint typical is splotchy and erratic not evenly distributed and it is encouraged to have large paint spots for those patterns. The pattern proposed for the Ermines are evenly distributed.

From what I can see of the group they seem highly divided and the person that runs the group seems to be on a different page then the woman who actually started Ermines to begin with. I don't particularly care for the name but I do love the pattern.

And I would like to add- that I'm not incapable of learning. Most of you are leaps and bounds ahead of me in all this. I just want to understand what exactly is going on with this pattern. The breeding chart does look like a paint chart, but when Exchequer was mentioned in a post, and I tried to research how it started and how it's bred I had a hard time finding anything. I spent a few hours looking too.

This is what I read as a featured post that prompted the excursion into "Exchequer" genetics. Believe it's mentioned in about paragraph 5. I want to add that a lot of what I've read in these "featured posts" don't seem to be the sentiment of everyone working on the breed.

Edited to add- that the whole "black Ameraucana's don't carry genetics thing" I'm certain was prompted from several comments I've read about it being recommended to only use black Ameraucana's from Ermine or Black Only lines, and never to use them from BBS lines. I don't really agree with this thought process either.

Ermine Ameraucana Genetics & History
The beautiful coloration of the Ermine Ameraucana is based on a strange and wonderful genetic mutation called Dominant White.

Without taking a deep dive into poultry color genetics, the color expression of the Ermine Ameraucana is caused by a codominance factor – both alleles are expressed and the phenotype is a mixture of patches of each. Lesser understood gene modifiers allow a certain amount of black to leak through the Dominant White. These patches of breakthrough black can be seen on the birds flesh, shanks and beak.
So very briefly…
The genotype for black poultry is BB.
The genotype for dominant white chickens is WW.
The genotype for the Ermine Ameraucana is BW.

While there are a few other breeds that have a dominant white factor, such as the White Leghorn, it is a completely different mutation than the one our Ermine Ameraucanas have. Breeding a White Leghorn to a black chicken will result in predominantly white offspring. Black leakage through White Leghorn Dominant White is minimal as their Dominant White has a much stronger black inhibitor.

The Dominant White mutation now present in our Ermine Ameraucanas was first recorded in the 1860’s in poultry brought over from the West Indies. Fascinated with the color and how differently it behaved than other poultry color genetics, a group of enthusiasts developed the American Erminette. While beautiful, the breed never became APA recognized as these breeders couldn’t agree on the overall conformation for their breed. Though popularity of the American Erminette declined, there are still a few flocks to be found in the US.

Somewhere along the way, a mixed breed hen possessing the West Indies Dominant White (henceforth referred to as WIDW) mutation ended up at Becky Pelton’s farm and after may years of trial and error breeding, Becky successfully developed the Ermine Ameraucana variety. It should be noted that at this time the APA is uncertain about us keeping the color designation of “Ermine” in favor of the already recognized “Exchequer” designation.

Breeding for color:
Ermine x Ermine breeding will result in roughly 25% Black, 50% Ermine and 25% Dominant White (WIDW) offspring.
Black x Ermine breeding will result in a roughly 50/50 split of Black and Ermine offspring.
Ermine x Dominant white breeding will result in a roughly 50/50 split of Dominant White (WIDW) and Ermine offspring.
Black x Dominant White (WIDW) breeding will result in 100% Ermine offspring.
Dominant White (WIDW) x Dominant White (WIDW) will result in 100% Dominant White offspring.

*It should be noted that the Black Ameraucanas produced from any crosses with birds with the Dominant White genetics DO NOT carry the Dominant White genetics at all. They are simply Black Ameraucanas.

*Dominant White (WIDW) Ameraucanas should not be shown as White Ameraucanas as the white breed variety is a recessive white with the bird’s shanks and beak presenting as slate colored. A Dominant White (WIDW) bird has pink shanks and beak – a disqualifier at an APA show.

I personally feel that APA recognition should be sought for West Indies Dominant White Ameraucanas in the future. They are a natural byproduct of breeding Ermine Ameraucanas, they breed true and are very uniform in appearance when well bred.