Silkie color genetics- any insight?

[Rooka_2]

Hey!
A couple questions.
First, please completely ignore the black mottled Houdan hen, shes my sons 4H show project and we keep her with our silkies because they're so gentle. We won't be hatching her eggs.

In this pen I have two roos, both pictured below. A showgirl frizzle and a.... blue? Grey? Im actually not sure what this color would be considered. I removed my white and splash roos 6 weeks ago so try and make some new colors and combos.
im completely new to this but here are my questions-

Will the blue/grey darken my paints genetics line?
my goal is paint frizzles, im completely aware you cannot breed frizzle to frizzle, I have another non hatching pen. Is there a way for me to increase my chances of getting paint frizzles?

Blue/grey came from a breeder with whites, blacks, blues and partridge. They were definitely mixed together so is there any chance I could possibly get any of those colors? All the whites and paints came from my silkies, I've only had whites and paints for the past two years and their colors have been consistent. These two roos are brand new to my flock and I'm just kinda experimenting to see what I get.

Any tips, tricks or insight? I'm brand new to this.

 

[Rose the Legbar]

@NatJ is good with genetic things!

 

[NatJ]

Is there a way for me to increase my chances of getting paint frizzles?

To get a frizzle, you need at least one frizzle parent. So your best bet is to set up one breeding pen with a frizzled rooster and non-frizzled hens, and if you have any frizzled hens you can set up another breeding pen using them with a non-frizzled rooster.

If you breed two chickens that are not frizzled, you will not get any frizzled chicks from them.


To get paints, you can breed a paint with a solid black or blue chicken, or you can breed paints to each other. Either way should give you about 50% paint chicks. The other half of chicks will differ depending on which way you set up the pen.

Paint x black = paint and black, about equal numbers

Paint x blue = paint, blue paint, black, blue, about equal numbers of each. Blue paint is like paint, but the colored bits are black rather than blue.

Paint x paint gives about half paint, a quarter black, a quarter white without paint. The whites from a paint x paint breeding can be bred to blacks and produce 100% paint in that next generation.

Breeding paint x white (if the white comes from a line of paints) should give 50% paint and 50% white. Breeding a white like that to a solid black or blue will give 100% paint.

All the whites and paints came from my silkies, I've only had whites and paints for the past two years and their colors have been consistent. These two roos are brand new to my flock and I'm just kinda experimenting to see what I get.

Since you have been getting consistent birds, and you just added new roosters, there is a definite chance of some changes.

The naked neck rooster should produce about 50% naked-neck chicks and 50% normal-neck chicks.

In this pen I have two roos... blue? Grey? Im actually not sure what this color would be considered.

Blue/grey came from a breeder with whites, blacks, blues and partridge. They were definitely mixed together so is there any chance I could possibly get any of those colors?

At first glance, I think he looks blue. But I've been confused by Silkies before, so there's a chance he might be grey instead. "Grey" in Silkies is genetically the same as partridge, except for having the Silver gene instead of the gold gene. Given what you say of the colors in that flock, he could be either one (blue or grey).

Will the blue/grey darken my paints genetics line?

If he is actually blue (genetically black, diluted by the blue gene), then he might, but it's not a certainty. If he is actually grey (genetics like Partridge but with the silver gene) then he will probably not darken your paints, and may make them lighter or cause leakage of yellow/gold/red shades in future generations.

 

[Rooka_2]

To get a frizzle, you need at least one frizzle parent. So your best bet is to set up one breeding pen with a frizzled rooster and non-frizzled hens, and if you have any frizzled hens you can set up another breeding pen using them with a non-frizzled rooster.

If you breed two chickens that are not frizzled, you will not get any frizzled chicks from them.


To get paints, you can breed a paint with a solid black or blue chicken, or you can breed paints to each other. Either way should give you about 50% paint chicks. The other half of chicks will differ depending on which way you set up the pen.

Paint x black = paint and black, about equal numbers

Paint x blue = paint, blue paint, black, blue, about equal numbers of each. Blue paint is like paint, but the colored bits are black rather than blue.

Paint x paint gives about half paint, a quarter black, a quarter white without paint. The whites from a paint x paint breeding can be bred to blacks and produce 100% paint in that next generation.

Breeding paint x white (if the white comes from a line of paints) should give 50% paint and 50% white. Breeding a white like that to a solid black or blue will give 100% paint.



Since you have been getting consistent birds, and you just added new roosters, there is a definite chance of some changes.

The naked neck rooster should produce about 50% naked-neck chicks and 50% normal-neck chicks.




At first glance, I think he looks blue. But I've been confused by Silkies before, so there's a chance he might be grey instead. "Grey" in Silkies is genetically the same as partridge, except for having the Silver gene instead of the gold gene. Given what you say of the colors in that flock, he could be either one (blue or grey).



If he is actually blue (genetically black, diluted by the blue gene), then he might, but it's not a certainty. If he is actually grey (genetics like Partridge but with the silver gene) then he will probably not darken your paints, and may make them lighter or cause leakage of yellow/gold/red shades in future generations.

Yes! Thank you so much! This is so helpful! With my frizzle naked neck, will he not give out the frizzle gene? The naked neck is not my favorite, I was more so hoping for the frizzle. I've also heard that it's hard to get anything but a white naked neck, is that true?
I really want to try and make paint/splash frizzles, I read a breeder say it's easy to go crazy on the all colors but to just pick one.
Also, how do you keep track of all these underlying genes? Like is there such thing as a log book or something? Because if I get a non frizzle out of my frizzle roo and white hen, then couldn't that baby technically make frizzles too?

 

[Rooka_2]

Yes! Thank you so much! This is so helpful! With my frizzle naked neck, will he not give out the frizzle gene? The naked neck is not my favorite, I was more so hoping for the frizzle. I've also heard that it's hard to get anything but a white naked neck, is that true?
I really want to try and make paint/splash frizzles, I read a breeder say it's easy to go crazy on the all colors but to just pick one.
Also, how do you keep track of all these underlying genes? Like is there such thing as a log book or something? Because if I get a non frizzle out of my frizzle roo and white hen, then couldn't that baby technically make frizzles too?

Nature answered my question about 5 minutes after I asked it. Damn this is tragic. A blue naked neck my hen hatched out over night, found it dead laying in front of her. I guess blue show girls are not rare or impossible to achieve. Any way to tell if this would have been a frizzle too? It's got to be a true blue because I can see silver in there. Man this one hurts so bad. This would have been a gorgeous bird that I would have loved profusely. My first showgirl hatch

 

[NatJ]

Yes! Thank you so much! This is so helpful! With my frizzle naked neck, will he not give out the frizzle gene? The naked neck is not my favorite, I was more so hoping for the frizzle.

If you breed him to hens that are not naked necks or frizzles, you will probably get all possible combinations in the chicks:

--frizzled naked necks
--frizzles with normal necks
--smooth feathered naked necks
--smooth feathers with normal necks

I think all four of those will be equally common.

I've also heard that it's hard to get anything but a white naked neck, is that true?

I haven't heard that.
I know that some hatcheries sell naked necks in a variety of colors. Example:
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/turkens_naked_necks.html

Nature answered my question about 5 minutes after I asked it. Damn this is tragic. A blue naked neck my hen hatched out over night, found it dead laying in front of her. I guess blue show girls are not rare or impossible to achieve. Any way to tell if this would have been a frizzle too? It's got to be a true blue because I can see silver in there. Man this one hurts so bad. This would have been a gorgeous bird that I would have loved profusely. My first showgirl hatch

I can't tell from the photo whether it would have been frizzled or not. You could try looking for feathers in the wings, to see if they are long enough to let you tell (straight vs. curved.) But it may not be possible to tell this early.

I agree that chick is a definite answer to whether the naked neck rooster will produce only white chicks. He did produce a not-white chick, and has a very good chance of producing some others as well.

Definitely sad that it died

Also, how do you keep track of all these underlying genes? Like is there such thing as a log book or something? Because if I get a non frizzle out of my frizzle roo and white hen, then couldn't that baby technically make frizzles too?

I don't know of any specific way to keep track of the genes, but I am sure one exists. You could just keep a list of your chickens, noting what you know of their genes (pages in a notebook, or a box of notecards, or a text file in a computer, or a spreadsheet in a computer, or whatever other form you think might work for you.)

When the rooster produces not-frizzle chicks, they have no frizzle gene. They are just as much not-frizzle as your current hens. So there is no need to record that their father was a frizzle (although you might want to keep track of the father for other reasons, like planning the next year's matings without having more inbreeding than you are comfortable with.)

 

[Just Rosie]

To get paints, you can breed a paint with a solid black or blue chicken, or you can breed paints to each other. Either way should give you about 50% paint chicks. The other half of chicks will differ depending on which way you set up the pen.

Paint x black = paint and black, about equal numbers

Paint x blue = paint, blue paint, black, blue, about equal numbers of each. Blue paint is like paint, but the colored bits are black rather than blue.

Paint x paint gives about half paint, a quarter black, a quarter white without paint. The whites from a paint x paint breeding can be bred to blacks and produce 100% paint in that next generation.

Breeding paint x white (if the white comes from a line of paints) should give 50% paint and 50% white. Breeding a white like that to a solid black or blue will give 100%

This is such great info, thank you so much. I had no idea blue paints were a thing. I actually just produced one myself and was curious about the genetics.

So basically, blue is just dilute black? So you can breed paint x blue to get blue paint or black paint? Does the black come from its paint parent?

Another way to ask what I'm asking is: if you bred a dominant white (paint white) to a blue bird, could you still get a black paint? Or would you get 100% blue paints?

I'm excited at all of the new possibilities this has unlocked for my flock! But I would like to understand it more.

One more thing I would like to clarify, there is no such thing as a "black split to paint", right? If its a black bird, there is no "paint gene" present; the dominant white over black is what accounts for paint, right?

I was taught and operating under the impression that black splits could be bred to black splits and would produce a small number of paints (25% I believe), but that's not accurate, is it?

 

[Debbie292d]

For colors I have I get from this link: Genetics Color

For colors I have not on that list I have a cheat sheet.

Paint to paint = 50% paint, 25% white, 25% black.
Black to paint = 50% paint and 50% black.
White to paint = 50% paint and 50% white.
Dominant white to black = 100% paint.
White is two copies of dominate white
Paint is one copy of white
Black is no copy of white


The cuckoo gene is dominant, however if you put a cuckoo hen with a solid roo it will be a sexlinked pairing. All boys will be cuckoo and girls will be solid

 

[NatJ]

So basically, blue is just dilute black?

Yes.

The blue gene is incompletely dominant. A chicken with two blue genes is splash. A chicken with one blue gene and one not-blue gene is the color we call blue. A chicken with two not-blue genes is black. (All of that is on a chicken that otherwise has the genes to be solid black. If the chicken has some pattern of other colors, the black/blue/splash affects only the black areas. Example: Blue Laced Red Wyandottes have the black lacing turned into blue, but the red is unaffected.)

So you can breed paint x blue to get blue paint or black paint?

Yes.

Does the black come from its paint parent?

Um, kinda. Because a "blue" chicken has one blue gene and one not-blue gene, that chicken will give blue to half of its chicks and not-blue to the other half of the chicks. The black paint has two not-blue genes, so it gives one to each chick. That means some chicks get two not-blue genes (one from each parent) and they are black or black paint. The other chicks get one blue gene (from the blue parent) and one not-blue gene (from the paint parent), so they are either blue or blue paint.

Another way to ask what I'm asking is: if you bred a dominant white (paint white) to a blue bird, could you still get a black paint? Or would you get 100% blue paints?

You should get 50% blue paints, 50% black paints.

One more thing I would like to clarify, there is no such thing as a "black split to paint", right? If its a black bird, there is no "paint gene" present; the dominant white over black is what accounts for paint, right?

Correct.

The amount of black and white on a paint chicken, and how it is distributed, is probably controlled by other genes. The blacks will still carry whatever other genes those are. So if you breed paint x black, you might get chicks that look slightly different if the black comes from a line of paints rather than a line of solid blacks. But just breeding two blacks will not give paints, no matter whether they come from paint parents or not.

I was taught and operating under the impression that black splits could be bred to black splits and would produce a small number of paints (25% I believe), but that's not accurate, is it?

You are correct now, what you were previously taught is not accurate.

 

[Chicks n stuff]

Female chickens have a Z sex chromosome and a W sex chromosome. Male chickens have two ZZ sex chromosomes.



Autosomal basically means NOT sexlinked.



Sexlinked means that the gene is on one of the sex chromosomes. Spoiler! Currently all the known sexlinked chicken color genes on the Z sex chromosome.



Gold v.s. Silver

S(Silver) is a sexlinked, incomplete dominant gene, s+(gold) is a sexlinked, recessive gene, gold is the absence of silver, s+ is gold, S is silver. Silver is not a gold dilution or inhibitor. Silver is a mutation of gold, silver and gold are the same gene, silver is the mutated form of gold. If the Z sex chromosome has a S(silver) gene then it doesn't have a s+(gold) gene. Think of silver and gold as being two different sides of the same coin. A more accurate analogy would be, think of the chromosome as a city, and the locus is the exact address of a one gene apartment, only one type of gene can live there, and only one gene can live there, there can only be a s+(gold) or a S(silver) on the gold/silver locus of a Z chromosome. That said, a rooster has two Z sex chromosomes and therefore can have a s+(gold) gene on one Z sex chromosome and a S(silver) gene on the other. Hens, however, have only one Z sex chromosome and therefore can only ever be silver or gold.



Gold diluters/gold inhibitors:

Di(dilute)- autosomal, dominant gene. Lightens gold.



ig(inhibitor of gold/lemon/cream) - autosomal, recessive gene. Lightens gold, however the results of this gene vary widely from individual to individual. The amount of change this gene causes to the gold of a particular chicken seems to be random.



Cb(Champagne blond) - autosomal, dominant gene. Lightens gold.



lav(lavender)- autosomal, recessive gene. Lightens gold and black. Lightens gold to a cream color.



Gold enhancer:

Mh(mahogany/red)- autosomal, dominant gene. Darkens gold.



Black enhancers:

Ml(Melanotic/melanised)-autosomal, dominant gene.



cha(charcoal/melanised)-autosomal, recessive gene.



Black diluters:

Bl(blue)- autosomal, incomplete dominant gene. One copy lightens black to grey, while two copies lighten black to white/pale grey with flecks of gray.



lav(lavender)- autosomal, recessive gene. Lightens black and gold. Lightens black to a light gray.



choc(chocolate) - sexlinked; found on the Z sex chromosome, recessive gene. Lightens black to a dark brown.



White:

I(dominant white/inhibitor of black)- autosomal, incomplete dominant gene. One copy removes most black, two copies remove all black, it can also lightens gold.



c(colorless/recessive white) - autosomal, recessive gene.



White stripes:

B(sexlinked barring/cuckoo)- sexlinked; found on the Z sex chromosome, incomplete dominant.



White spots or white spots accompanied by and attached to black spots:

mo(mottled)- autosomal, recessive gene.



Auto sexing chickens.

First and foremost auto sexing implies generational stability, in the accuracy of sexing chicks, aka, being able to see constant differences in male and female chick down throughout the generations.



Sexlinked on the other hand gives you a single generation of chicks that can be sexed by looking at the chick down. A sexlinked chicken does Not breed true, an auto sexing chicken does.



Genes that have auto sexing potential:



e+(duckwing/wild type) is a E series base color that has auto sexing properties. The female chick down has darker stripes and looks to be wearing black eyeliner.



ig(cream) is a gold inhibitor. It lightens the chick down of male chicks.



B(sexlinked barring/cuckoo) is a gene mutation that causes white stripes on the feathers of the birds carrying this gene. This gene has both auto sexing and sexlink potential. It is a sexlinked gene, which is carried on the Z sex chromosome, as female chickens are ZW they can only ever be hemizygous, whereas males can be homozygous or heterozygous as they have two Z sex chromosomes. Males that are homozygous for sexlinked barring will have a larger white head spot and be lighter in color than their hemizygous female counterpart.



The cream legbar is an auto sexing breed that's foundation color is e+(duckwing), they have the gold inhibitor ig(cream), and they have the sexlinked barring B(barring/cuckoo). Cream legbars are very easy to sex.



Sexlinked pairings:



Homozygous s+(gold) rooster paired with a S(silver) hen.



Solid colored rooster paired with a B(sexlinked barring/cuckoo) hen.



choc(sexlinked chocolate) rooster paired with solid colored hens.





Pattern genes/genes that react with pattern genes:

Co(Columbia)- autosomal, dominant gene.

Db(darkbrown/black tail)- autosomal, dominant gene.

Ml(melanotic/melanised)- autosomal, dominant gene.

Pg(pattern gene)- autosomal, dominant gene.

The resulting pattern will differ depending on what foundation color your chicken is.

Spangled: (Db+Ml+Pg).

Laced: (Co+Ml+Pg), or (Co+Db+Ml+Pg).

Autosomal barring/black barring: (Db+Pg), autosomal barring will only show up on roosters that are ER(birchen).

	Ar:	Autosomal Red
	H:	Silky	h=Silky
	F:	Frizzle	F=Frizzle semilethal [Frizzle]
	Na:	Naked Neck	Na=Naked neck [Naked neck SF]
	Hf:	Henny Feathering	Hf=Henny feathered [Henny feathered SF]
	Cp:	Creeper	Cp=Creeper LETHAL [Creeper]
	Pti:	Foot Feathering (simplified)	Pti=Featherfooted
	V:	Vulture Hocks	v=Vulture hocks
	Mb:	Muff Beard	Mb=Beard [little Beard]
	Cr:	Crest	Cr=Crest [little Crest]
	Et:	EarTuft	Et=Eartufts lethal? [Eartufts]
	Rp:	Rumplessness	Rp=Rumpless lethal? [Rumpless]
	Fm:	Fibromelanistic	Fm=Darkskin?
	W:	White skin	w=Yellowskin
	Id:	Inhibitor Dermal Melanin	Id=Lightshank?	Sex-linked / Geslachtsgebonden
	Po:	Polydactyly	Po=Extra toes
	O:	Blue egger	O=Blue egger
	Bd:	Breda Combless	bd=Combless
	D:	Duplex Comb	Dv=V-shape Duplex comb [V-shape Duplex]
	R:	Rosecomb	R=Rosecomb r+=non-rosecomb
	P:	Peacomb	P=Peacomb p+=non-peacomb