Small drakes and big(ger) hens - QUESTIONS

[Papaye]

Hello.

I am thinking to adopt small drakes - Calls and/or Black East Indies - in order to make them produce offsprings with duck hens from bigger breeds... meaning here :
• Indian Runner hens,
• Khaki Campbell hens,
• Cayuga hens,
• (French) Duclair hens.

...And MAYBE also hens from other breeds - I still don't know...

Because I own drakes from these breeds, I don't think it would be smart of me to adopt small duck hens... am I mistaken?

...I actually first wanted to make Wood ducks crosses, given I have - in fact - seen pictures of some of them, and I had then thought they were so splendid they deserved to be seen and shared...
(...Here are the pictures : https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/wood-duck-hybrids-pictures-including-mallard-x-wood-duck.756201/)

But sadly, after doing some research, I have eventually learned Wood duck crosses are apparently infertile...

Thus : after thinking about it, I decided I would (choose to) adopt Call drakes and/or Black East Indie drakes instead...

And so, my questions are :

1 • Can Call (and Black East Indie) drakes actually fertilize the eggs laid by so big(ger) hens...?
(Looks... complicated, right...?)

2 • Since Calls (and Black East Indies) are so small : would I still have to respect a ratio male-females if I don't take home small(er) duck hens...?
(Small drakes can NOT actually hurt big duck hens... right?)

3 • Will their offsprings be able to lay a lot of eggs - even though they will be crosses?
(I have learned the egg production depends on a hen's father...?)

4 • Is it really a bad idea to adopt Call and/or Black East Indie hens... knowing my biggest drakes will then be Cayugas...?
(Because I actually would prefer to be able to make purebred Call and/or East Indie offsprings too, you know...?)

...A huge THANK YOU to the ones who will reply to me!
Any advice - and PICTURES - would be very much appreciated, even regarding drakes from other (small) breeds.

(I still don't know if I will really bring so small drakes home, but I am seriously thinking about it; and if I eventually decide to adopt them, I want then to be prepared enough...)

 

[Papaye]

Hi.

Re-reading myself, I have just noticed I forgot to ask something...!!

So, my last question actually is... :

• ...Are Call ducks the breed used to create a bantam version of big (duck) breeds?

Because I am interested by the idea of making Bantan Indian Runner ducks - among other breeds...
...And I know I would need the help of a small breed to make them... but I don't actually know if I am right by deciding to use Call ducks - specifically...?

Any advice would be so appreciated...!!

(Thank you in advance.)

Also : would somebody have any picture of Miniature Indian Runners to share...?
I have read they actually already exist - or have existed at least - in America?

 

[Luv Ducks]

I have three Call Duck drakes and I have seen my one mount my Khaki Campbell hen and also my Mallard. I have seen where the eggs are fertile from the Mallard. I have a mixture of hens, I do not know which eggs come from which hens other than the Mallard since they are green. I use to have a black bibbed Call Duck and it fertilized an egg from my Mallard. The one that was fertile from it came out black bibbed so I knew it was his. It turned out to be a drake and grew to full size so I rehomed it. I guess it is iffy on whether or not the ducklings will be small or be more the size of the Hen like my one was. I now have three Black East Indies females that I got recently as ducklings so in the spring they may mate with my Calls and that would be interesting as I would think they would be smaller. Good luck with your plan. I had a Wood Duck but unfortunately lost her to a predator. I have since replaced all of my pen with a more secure setup so hopefully that will never happen again. I would love to have another Wood duck but they seem to be hard to find.

 

[Papaye]

Hi.

Thank you for replying, @Luv Ducks !!

I especially wonder if a Call drake would succeed in mating with an Indian Runner hen, because Runners are so vertical, and I can't imagine a Call duck doing the job with them...

(...It would be so interesting to see miniature Indian Runner ducks...!!)

I now have three Black East Indies females that I got recently as ducklings so in the spring they may mate with my Calls and that would be interesting as I would think they would be smaller.

Yeah...
I have never seen East Indies in real life, but after searching for information about them, I found they were bigger than Call ducks...

I imagine if you get tiny Black East Indies, they would be shinier yet than purebred BEI?
(Since BEI are told to be shinier than Cayuga ducks BECAUSE they are smaller...!!)

Good luck with your plan.

Thank you.

For the time being, my plan depends on if I can find these (kind of) drakes before Spring or not... and honestly, I don't think I will.

(Otherwise, I plan to maybe make Cayuga X Indian Runner crosses instead, because I am very curious to see what the crosses will look like...)

I had a Wood Duck but unfortunately lost her to a predator.

That's sad... and they are so beautiful ducks!
(I am sorry for you...!)

But given they are so small AND so colourful, they are easy preys for predators...

(You were not lucky...)

I would love to have another Wood duck but they seem to be hard to find.

You will find them when you are NOT searching for them; ah, ah, ah!

If you have them, do you plan to let them mate with your other ducks?
(Knowing the offsprings would be sterile...!!)

 

[Luv Ducks]

Hi.

Thank you for replying, @Luv Ducks !!

I especially wonder if a Call drake would succeed in mating with an Indian Runner hen, because Runners are so vertical, and I can't imagine a Call duck doing the job with them...

(...It would be so interesting to see miniature Indian Runner ducks...!!)



Yeah...
I have never seen East Indies in real life, but after searching for information about them, I found they were bigger than Call ducks...

I imagine if you get tiny Black East Indies, they would be shinier yet than purebred BEI?
(Since BEI are told to be shinier than Cayuga ducks BECAUSE they are smaller...!!)



Thank you.

For the time being, my plan depends on if I can find these (kind of) drakes before Spring or not... and honestly, I don't think I will.

(Otherwise, I plan to maybe make Cayuga X Indian Runner crosses instead, because I am very curious to see what the crosses will look like...)



That's sad... and they are so beautiful ducks!
(I am sorry for you...!)

But given they are so small AND so colourful, they are easy preys for predators...

(You were not lucky...)



You will find them when you are NOT searching for them; ah, ah, ah!

If you have them, do you plan to let them mate with your other ducks?
(Knowing the offsprings would be sterile...!!)

I don't really need any more ducks. I have a sterile Mule duck right now that I named Lucky because I literally had to peel her out of her egg and wash her immediately because she was full of goo. Through all of that she survived and is my friendliest duck. She is a real pig though and practically grabs the cucumber treats out of my hand, lol. I love you and don't care if she is sterile since I already have enough ducks. My Black East Indies are small and not that much bigger than my Calls. They are so pretty and pure black with pure black bills and feet. They were called pet quality but the coloring in the sunlight is beautiful. I was fortunate to find them from someone that had them not far from here. She got them as hatching eggs and then started raising them. Good luck on your adventure of getting ducklings. I too imagine a Call duck would have a hard time mating a Runner duck and I have never heard of little Runner Ducks.

 

[Luv Ducks]

Hi.

Thank you for replying, @Luv Ducks !!

I especially wonder if a Call drake would succeed in mating with an Indian Runner hen, because Runners are so vertical, and I can't imagine a Call duck doing the job with them...

(...It would be so interesting to see miniature Indian Runner ducks...!!)



Yeah...
I have never seen East Indies in real life, but after searching for information about them, I found they were bigger than Call ducks...

I imagine if you get tiny Black East Indies, they would be shinier yet than purebred BEI?
(Since BEI are told to be shinier than Cayuga ducks BECAUSE they are smaller...!!)



Thank you.

For the time being, my plan depends on if I can find these (kind of) drakes before Spring or not... and honestly, I don't think I will.

(Otherwise, I plan to maybe make Cayuga X Indian Runner crosses instead, because I am very curious to see what the crosses will look like...)



That's sad... and they are so beautiful ducks!
(I am sorry for you...!)

But given they are so small AND so colourful, they are easy preys for predators...

(You were not lucky...)



You will find them when you are NOT searching for them; ah, ah, ah!

If you have them, do you plan to let them mate with your other ducks?
(Knowing the offsprings would be sterile...!!)

You are most welcome for my reply. I have heard that if you use Cayuga for a drake that they will be sex linked I believe and some will just be black. Not sure, there are people on here that are experts about colors. I get confused in all of that.

 

[Papaye]

I don't really need any more ducks.

But sometimes, we just can't help ourselves... ah, ah, ah!

I have a sterile Mule duck right now that I named Lucky because I literally had to peel her out of her egg and wash her immediately because she was full of goo. Through all of that she survived and is my friendliest duck. She is a real pig though and practically grabs the cucumber treats out of my hand, lol. I love you and don't care if she is sterile since I already have enough ducks.

Ooooooh... I love hearing about such stories...!!

Lucky she is, indeed, to have (been) found (by) you!
(Something tells me she loves you as much as you love her - and NOT because you spoil her rotten...?)

My Black East Indies are small and not that much bigger than my Calls.

So, I was mistaken...?
Good to know...!

I thought BEI were clearly bigger (enough) than Calls, but I only know what I read : that's hard to have an actual idea about their size if we only look at pictures of them...

(I am always learning new things... I am seriously so grateful...!!)

They are so pretty and pure black with pure black bills and feet.

From the pictures I have seen of them, Black East Indies are indeed beautiful, cute, and SHINY...!!

I know they also exist in Blue, because : https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/black-east-indies-and-blue-east-indies-jackson-michigan.1556469/

(And even in Blue, they still are shiny...!!)

Good luck on your adventure of getting ducklings.

Thank you!!

I too imagine a Call duck would have a hard time mating a Runner duck and I have never heard of little Runner Ducks.

I have read about them, but only in English...
But I have NEVER seen any picture of them.

The person I got my first Indian Runners from is developing Bantam Duclair ducks; so, I am also guessing every medium and big sized duck breed can, theoretically, be miniaturized...?
(...Using Call ducks, I would imagine?)

You are most welcome for my reply.

I would like you to know I really appreciate your kindness!!

I have heard that if you use Cayuga for a drake that they will be sex linked I believe and some will just be black.

No...?

I know if a Khaki Campbell drake mate with a Cayuga hen, then the ducklings would be sex-linked : the boys would be Brown, and the girls would be Black.

But if the drake is Black, then the ducklings should not be sex-linked...

Not sure, there are people on here that are experts about colors. I get confused in all of that.

Thankfully : some people intervening here sometimes do know a lot about colour genetic, and help us to understand it better!

...I am learning, but I still have much to learn!!

For the time being, I use THE calculator if needed :
https://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingEend.html
(But from what I have understood : all the results are not - actually - correct...?
Still : it is a great tool to - be able to - use!)

 

[Luv Ducks]

But sometimes, we just can't help ourselves... ah, ah, ah!



Ooooooh... I love hearing about such stories...!!

Lucky she is, indeed, to have (been) found (by) you!
(Something tells me she loves you as much as you love her - and NOT because you spoil her rotten...?)



So, I was mistaken...?
Good to know...!

I thought BEI were clearly bigger (enough) than Calls, but I only know what I read : that's hard to have an actual idea about their size if we only look at pictures of them...

(I am always learning new things... I am seriously so grateful...!!)



From the pictures I have seen of them, Black East Indies are indeed beautiful, cute, and SHINY...!!

I know they also exist in Blue, because : https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/black-east-indies-and-blue-east-indies-jackson-michigan.1556469/

(And even in Blue, they still are shiny...!!)



Thank you!!



I have read about them, but only in English...
But I have NEVER seen any picture of them.

The person I got my first Indian Runners from is developing Bantam Duclair ducks; so, I am also guessing every medium and big sized duck breed can, theoretically, be miniaturized...?
(...Using Call ducks, I would imagine?)



I would like you to know I really appreciate your kindness!!



No...?

I know if a Khaki Campbell drake mate with a Cayuga hen, then the ducklings would be sex-linked : the boys would be Brown, and the girls would be Black.

But if the drake is Black, then the ducklings should not be sex-linked...



Thankfully : some people intervening here sometimes do know a lot about colour genetic, and help us to understand it better!

...I am learning, but I still have much to learn!!

For the time being, I use THE calculator if needed :
https://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingEend.html
(But from what I have understood : all the results are not - actually - correct...?
Still : it is a great tool to - be able to - use!)

I too think that maybe we get smaller breeds by using smaller ducks to breed with. My Black East Indies are smaller than my Mallard Ducks and bigger than my Calls so they are sort of in between the two of them. My bigger ducks have never hurt any of my little fellas. Two of my Males look like what they refer to as Dusty Mallards. I have no idea what the ducklings would look like if they mated my Black East Indies. I never plan on ducklings but if I find a hen sitting on a clutch of eggs that they have been able to hide from me really well, I don't have the heart to throw the eggs away. That is how I have gotten clutches of eggs and babies that I was able to sell luckily. Sometimes though we get stuck with them. My Mallard female used to do that to me and she always threw off male ducklings. The East Indies I got came from a Hen that throws off females so the owner of her is very lucky and so was I that they all three turned out to be Hens. I know Metzer Farms ships out of the country but the airfare is $250.00 alone so that would be a hefty price if you wanted to get some male Call Ducks, plus they don't sex them so it would be a gamble. My two Pastel Call's came from them and I got a pair so I lucked out. Some people have ordered 6 from them and got 5 males and one female which would be hard to deal with. A lady called me once and wanted me to take her 4 boys and one girl Call ducks and I told her my one girl is loud enough and I surely did not need 4 more drakes. You are most welcome for my responses.

 

[Papaye]

Hi.

My Black East Indies are smaller than my Mallard Ducks and bigger than my Calls so they are sort of in between the two of them.

Ok...
...I thought BEI was, in fact, the exact same size than Mallard ducks...

Two of my Males look like what they refer to as Dusty Mallards. I have no idea what the ducklings would look like if they mated my Black East Indies.

I have bred a Bibbed Black Indian Runner drake with several Light Dusky Indian Runner hens, and the ducklings were Bibbed Black OR Light Dusky coloured...!

(BUT : if your two boys are, in fact, Mallard patterned, then 100% of the ducklings should be Bibbed Black.)

I never plan on ducklings but if I find a hen sitting on a clutch of eggs that they have been able to hide from me really well, I don't have the heart to throw the eggs away.

The fact you have ducks hens that go broody is amazing to me, because apart from just one, none of my ducks has never been willing to sit on eggs.

I had my very first broody duck hen only last Summer : an 1-year-old Indian Runner hen that was hatched (in my yard) by a chicken hen...

I was very surprised, because Indian Runners are renowned to NOT go broody...!

(...I had to remove the eggs eventually, because she had chosen a bad location to sit on them, and I did not want her to be killed because of that...)

My Mallard female used to do that to me and she always threw off male ducklings. The East Indies I got came from a Hen that throws off females so the owner of her is very lucky and so was I that they all three turned out to be Hens.

...What?

What do you mean, by "throw off"?
(Sorry : I am not sure I really understand what you actually mean, so I prefer to ask...!)

I know Metzer Farms ships out of the country but the airfare is $250.00 alone so that would be a hefty price if you wanted to get some male Call Ducks, plus they don't sex them so it would be a gamble.

Yeah... that would be really expensive, and the fact I would have to also find a mean (and the time) to go to the airport to retrieve the ducks would be much too bothersome.

But still : that's great to be able to buy ducks from America and have them shipped in France!

My two Pastel Call's came from them and I got a pair so I lucked out. Some people have ordered 6 from them and got 5 males and one female which would be hard to deal with. A lady called me once and wanted me to take her 4 boys and one girl Call ducks and I told her my one girl is loud enough and I surely did not need 4 more drakes.

Woooow...
You are, in fact, lucky she had not thrown them in your yard!!
(I know that happens sometimes...!)

You are most welcome for my responses.

Again : thank you!
Sincerely...!

 

[Luv Ducks]

Hi.



Ok...
...I thought BEI was, in fact, the exact same size than Mallard ducks...



I have bred a Bibbed Black Indian Runner drake with several Light Dusky Indian Runner hens, and the ducklings were Bibbed Black OR Light Dusky coloured...!

(BUT : if your two boys are, in fact, Mallard patterned, then 100% of the ducklings should be Bibbed Black.)



The fact you have ducks hens that go broody is amazing to me, because apart from just one, none of my ducks has never been willing to sit on eggs.

I had my very first broody duck hen only last Summer : an 1-year-old Indian Runner hen that was hatched (in my yard) by a chicken hen...

I was very surprised, because Indian Runners are renowned to NOT go broody...!

(...I had to remove the eggs eventually, because she had chosen a bad location to sit on them, and I did not want her to be killed because of that...)



...What?

What do you mean, by "throw off"?
(Sorry : I am not sure I really understand what you actually mean, so I prefer to ask...!)



Yeah... that would be really expensive, and the fact I would have to also find a mean (and the time) to go to the airport to retrieve the ducks would be much too bothersome.

But still : that's great to be able to buy ducks from America and have them shipped in France!



Woooow...
You are, in fact, lucky she had not thrown them in your yard!!
(I know that happens sometimes...!)



Again : thank you!
Sincerely...!

You are most welcome. The female Duck is who determines the sex of the ducklings. In people it is the male, ducks it is the female. By throwing off I meant produces mostly all males. The lady that I got the Black East Indies duck has a Hen that has hatched out all females. Sorry for the confusion. I just call it throwing off but it is actually producing I guess. The last person that bought her ducklings had 5 females and then I got 3 that had hatched out and they were all females. My Mallard duck hatched out over 35 eggs over the years and I only got 2 females out of all of those and the rest were all drakes. This is why I do not like for her to sit on her eggs, knowing they will end up being drakes. She is a great Mom though. I had a Muscovy Duck sit on eggs last summer in the top of a chicken house. It was a very hot summer and the eggs actually cooked. It was in the high 90's here and in that house I was lucky she did not die. When I checked the eggs they were just like they were hard boiled where they actually cooked from the heat. Only one looked to be fertile when I was checking them in the beginning and she was bound determined she was going to hatch them out. I finally had to get rid of all of them when I realized what was going on and make her stop being broody. She was lucky she did not cook herself. She would have been a great Momma Duck but she also chose a bad spot with the heat we had.