Spiral Line Breeding and Genetics

[Cyprus]

I've tried to be able to give them a label that identifies them. They are unlike any breed I've raised. I think I should characterize them as a breed that is very productive of very large, very dark eggs that is to be admired from afar and their aloofness makes them very predator resistant.
They aren't for the pet person that wants lap pets.
I really admire them when they free range and then collect all those huge dark eggs.

Do you have any pictures of their eggs?

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Do you have any pictures of their eggs?

There are pictures of their eggs in this link.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/black-penedesenca-hatching-eggs.1235753/#post-19829873

 

[ColtHandorf]

Seeing them and loving them are two different things. I realize they are not for everyone. Some call them flighty but that designation is more nuanced. I call them aloof and wary. Given enough space, they are less flighty. Just don't corner a bird in a tight space. By the time they are a year or so old they are pretty calm. But if you get a single bird alone in a confined space, they go ballistic. A flock of them together will run up and bother you.
They are very respectful of fences and in that regard are easy keepers.
What variety did you have? Where did you get your birds?

I completely agree with you on that. They were certainly a very different bird than the Marans, Welsummers, Barnevelders, Javas, Faverolles, Wyandottes, Australorps, etc. that I was working with at the time.

Let's see what all I can remember. I had Crele and Black Penedesencas. This was way back when eggbid was a thing and day-old Creles were going for $100 a piece. I remember auctions for started pairs and trios going for over $500 or $600 by the time the last bid was in. We hatched the eggs out, and if I remember the story correctly, split the order of eggs with Barry Koffler of Feather Site. Now this could just be rumor, but I heard man years after the fact that those eggs were part of a shipment of eggs smuggled into the US. But I honestly don't know if that is fact or just people speculating due to the cost of importation at the time. I do know the eggs were from an import though, whether that have been through legal means or not. We hatched out a quad of Creles and two Blacks. Both of the Blacks were male. Someone else who got eggs from that shipment only hatched one pullet. We had her shipped to us when she was like two-three months old and raised her with the cockerels. They were extremely flighty compared to the other birds of the same age. They were coddled and kept away from any of the other birds until their breeding pens were complete. The Black pullet laid one egg in the tractor before the move, and after we moved her she never laid another egg. We thought maybe she was uncomfortable because it was just her and the rooster, so we tossed a handful of Sicilian Buttercup hens in the pen. The Buttercups laid regularly. So the Blacks were a bust. The Creles were gorgeous birds, albeit still super flighty. Like would get as far away from you as possible anytime you entered the pen to feed, water, etc. They did lay well, although the eggs weren't like crazy dark. The Crele rooster was also super obnoxious. He'd pace the wire farthest away from you with the hens when you were in the pen and waited every time until you were halfway through the gate to run up, spur the sole of the foot still in the pen, and be back against the wire before you could turn around. So maybe the setup we had for them wasn't ideal. Or the way they were raised as started birds affected them negatively. I'm not sure. I've always wondered what they would have been like if they'd been raised around other, calmer breeds, or if they'd mellow if a Cochin hen had hatched them out and brooded them.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Let's see what all I can remember. I had Crele and Black Penedesencas. This was way back when eggbid was a thing and day-old Creles were going for $100 a piece. I remember auctions for started pairs and trios going for over $500 or $600 by the time the last bid was in. We hatched the eggs out, and if I remember the story correctly, split the order of eggs with Barry Koffler of Feather Site. Now this could just be rumor, but I heard man years after the fact that those eggs were part of a shipment of eggs smuggled into the US. But I honestly don't know if that is fact or just people speculating due to the cost of importation at the time. I do know the eggs were from an import though, whether that have been through legal means or not. We hatched out a quad of Creles and two Blacks. Both of the Blacks were male. Someone else who got eggs from that shipment only hatched one pullet. We had her shipped to us when she was like two-three months old and raised her with the cockerels. They were extremely flighty compared to the other birds of the same age. They were coddled and kept away from any of the other birds until their breeding pens were complete. The Black pullet laid one egg in the tractor before the move, and after we moved her she never laid another egg. We thought maybe she was uncomfortable because it was just her and the rooster, so we tossed a handful of Sicilian Buttercup hens in the pen. The Buttercups laid regularly. So the Blacks were a bust. The Creles were gorgeous birds, albeit still super flighty. Like would get as far away from you as possible anytime you entered the pen to feed, water, etc. They did lay well, although the eggs weren't like crazy dark. The Crele rooster was also super obnoxious. He'd pace the wire farthest away from you with the hens when you were in the pen and waited every time until you were halfway through the gate to run up, spur the sole of the foot still in the pen, and be back against the wire before you could turn around. So maybe the setup we had for them wasn't ideal. Or the way they were raised as started birds affected them negatively. I'm not sure. I've always wondered what they would have been like if they'd been raised around other, calmer breeds, or if they'd mellow if a Cochin hen had hatched them out and brooded them.

Thanks for that story. I do know that Barry Koffler was one of the people involved with importation along with 2 or 3 other people. There were 2 importations that were legal and at least one of the importations also included white Empordanesas. I believe I was told that there were 80 Penedesenca eggs imported. I don't know if that was just blacks or all 4 varieties. but that of the first importation 20 hatched.
I probably need to talk with Barry and pick his brain.
I really want to bring in more eggs but I don't have the means to make 3 trips to Spain at the present time. My daughter was in Barcelona a couple years ago. I wanted her to bring back eggs but it was a spur of the moment trip and it just wasn't feasible to find breeders and get the paperwork done in a timely manner. She didn't want to do it but said she would if I would pop for a flight to Morocco while she was there.
One thing that may have screwed up importation is that more attention in Catalonia has been paid to the 'improved' variety of blacks rather than the 'classic'. The 'improved' is a meatier bird but has lost the white earlobe and dark egg which I think are two of their most important characteristics.
I think to be successful, one would need to take a first trip to travel the region and find breeders who have quality birds laying the darkest eggs. Find those who have enough birds that they can produce hundreds of eggs in short order so one can bring home the freshest eggs. Those breeders would also have to be willing to go through the government veterinary scrutiny and paperwork acceptable to the USDA. That would be an expensive endeavor in itself and may take two trips. For most farmers, they just don't want the hassle.
I don't think importation is worthwhile for a couple dozen eggs. You need 100 of each variety. Then on the final trip to hand carry the eggs you have to have the right packaging and the approval to bring them on the plane without X-ray. Things can go haywire at any step of the way.
No wonder Greenfire Farms birds are so expensive. That's just what it costs.
Another issue is that many of the breeds are even extremely rare in their home territory. That just makes the whole process harder.
From my experience and from speaking with other keepers, they just hate close confinement, especially when humans are in close proximity. They are the penultimate free range bird. Out at dawn, foraging all day and in roosting by dusk. Just after dark is the best time to handle them. I just moved 13 birds from one building to another last night. I was easily able to pick 11 of them off their roosting place with barely a squawk. Only 2 screamed bloody murder. If I had done that before dawn, they all would have been screaming.
I'm not nearly the pet person that most people on BYC are. I just love the breed. They match my personality. I don't like coddling birds or needing to. I keep several separate flocks. I open up in the morning, make sure they have food and water and forget about them till I lock up at night. This time of year, or actually from late March till October, they barely eat any chicken feed. They eat more than twice as much when vegetation and animal protein is gone in winter.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Okay.. I might mess around a little... cuz you're right.. it can be a lot of fun!

And I do have enough information to not quite run myself off the track.

What's the worst that could happen?
Even if everything goes sideways and you can't get the pattern back that you want you'd still be able to sell them all as bantam EEs.
That's not a bad thing.

But anyways if you think about it how do you think a lot of breeds have so many different varieties?
Patterns get crossed then straightened out all the time to achieve new varieties in different breeds. And a lot of times they're not only crossing patterns but breeds also. If they can do that and get them correct crossing patterns seems like it wouldn't be so hard.