Terramycin Question...

[Makareina]

I am wondering about the use of Terramycin in egg laying chickens. I need to treat my chickens with an antibiotic... something is going on, some sneezing, runny noses and such. I've lost a couple of chickens recently, and a couple more are starting to not look great. My question is, Terramycin (which I happen to have) says that it's contraindicated for egg chickens. What would the withdrawal period be if I do use Terramycin? And/or is there a better antibiotic I could use, broad spectrum?

Thanks so much for your time.

 

[threehorses]

Well first, you need to know what you're treating. These illnesses are sometimes viral, sometimes fungal, though often enough there are bacteria involved.

Can you please tell us more? I'd hate to see you use the old terramycin that isn't very effective anymore (in fact many companies just plain discontinued it) when there can be a different approach? Furthermore, to do terramycin *right* you have to treat for 14 days, making fresh solutions daily (which means more than one package), keeping it out of light, and you can't use yogurt as a probiotic. The longer you medicate, the harder it is on the bird's digestive tract and immune system. You want a strong antibiotic, correct for the bacteria, and to just knock it out quick and get it over with. I'm thinking Tylan, LS50, or maybe even Duramycin combined with Aureomycin - but not sure yet - let's see what these questions suggest:

Some questions I'd love answers to in order to help you better:
What age are these birds? What breeds?
Have you recently introcued new birds?
Have you had a lot of rain recently?
When you say runny noses, can you give more detail? (Clear, thin, thick, white, smell, non-smelly, crystalline when dried)
When you say other stuff, are you seeing any: eye gunk (describe as the nose gunk), eye drainage, wheezing, coughing, flinging of head to empty throat, any blood?

While I wait for those answers to help get you a really good antibiotic (which after using just plain terramycin you'd probably have to treat with anyway), I'd like to share some non-medicinal supports that make treating respiratory problems (of any origin) easier and quicker. (See article below).

In the mean time, any time you treat with anything you cannot use the eggs for at least 2 weeks, normally a month.


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SUPPORTIVE TREATMENT OF RESPIRATORY ILLNESS IN POULTRY- by Nathalie Ross


When i treat respiratory illnesses, I like to bombard the germs from every angle: medicinal, supportive treatments, nutritional, etc.

Medicinal:
With medicines, you want to get a very effective antibiotic, use it full strength (not the 'prevention' strength of some med labels - labels are confusing), use it for a full 7-14 days (or depending on the labeling), and if it doesn't work in four days consider a different antibiotic.

We'll help you figure out which antibiotic. Though depending on the age of the birds, I'm thinking Tylan or LS50. Terramycin isn't very effective any more particularly if you used it and it didn't work. Depending on how long you used the sulmet, it's likely not Pasteuella (cholera) as that would have treated your birds if you used the sulmet for 3 days or more correctly.

(To be honest, it's nearly impossible to determine exactly what bacteria is to blame here - or if this is even bacterial versus fungal or viral... to do so would require a 'culture and sensitivity' from the vet to grow out the bacteria and determine exactly which antibiotics do and don't work for it. In the mean time, we guestimate and avoid using antibiotics unless it's pretty obviously likely bacterial - as in this case.)

Supportive treatments:

VetRx:
In all cases of suspected or actual respiratory illness, I use VetRx for poultry (or rabbits, or any species) to help the birds breathe. A bird that doesn't breathe will not eat. A bird that doesn't eat will not heal. VetRx works like Vicks does for humans - bringing comfort and air to their respiratory tract, possibly reducing inflammation, and definitely reducing mucus. It's very inexpensive for a 2 ounce bottle which, because you dilute it, lasts ages. If you can't find VetRx of any kind in your feed store, call your local big chain pet stores for Marshal Pet Peter rabbit Rx - it's the same thing.

You will use q-tips to swab the bird. Mix a little very hot water and quite a few drops of VetRx together in a cup. Mixing cools the water to warm and emulsifies the oil into the water. Use a new q-tip end for each spot (one nostril one end, next nostril next end...) and a completely new q-tip for each new bird being treated. Use the warm emulsified VetRx to clean and swab the nares - it can get in there a little - helps their sinuses. I clean under each eye very close to the tear duct. I use a vetrx wetted q-tip to swab the cleft in the roof of the mouth. That fumes their sinuses (opens up to the eye sinuses) to facilitate oxygen flow. I personally believe it also reduces inflammation slightly with the cooling effect.
VetRx is NOT a medicine; it's a supportive topical.

Probiotics (also categorized as nutritional):
The bird's digestive tract is lined with beneficial bacteria. They colonize the gut and help the bird digest food by breaking down into absorbable nutrients what the gizzard mechanically broke into smaller pieces. They also excrete enzymes that are said to ward off bad bacteria to some degree. Further more, by the act of literal competition, they fight off some bad bacteria, fungi, and to some degree protazoa.

Any time you have an ill bird, I treat with Probiotics which aren't a medicine but a supporting device. But the live bacteria, if provided, will help replace bacteria that are killed off by medicating, sinus drainage, stress, etc. (Note - the sinuses drain into the digestive tract through that previously mentioned cleft in the roof of the beak - the drainage upsets the pH of the gut, and thus upsets the bacteria there - so we bolster the number of good bacteria through probiotics.)

Your choices: If medicating with anything ending in -cycline or -mycin as an active ingredient (tetracycline, LS50, duromycin, etc) then you cannot use milk products or yogurt. Your options are them Probios powder (from the feedstore or TSC), or acidophilis capsules (Walmart vitamin section, grocery store or drug store or health food store vitamin section). Use the powder from the above to mix into the daily damp mash (only a small bit that they eat first), or another quickly eaten treat like mashed yolk of a boiled egg.

If you're NOT treating with a -mycin or -cycline, you can use plain unflavored yogurt. Use straight, or mix with water to make a quickly eaten damp mash (see below in 'nutritional')

All probiotics - give daily during medication, then every other day for 2 weeks after medications to make sure the bacteria are all replenished. This does NOT make them dependent on your probiotics - it does help them.

Nutritional:
A bird must continue to provide fuel for the fight in order to WIN the fight. A bird who is ill often will not eat enough, or possibly not eat at all. It's doubly important that what they DO eat is rich in nutrients, nutritionally balanced, and appropriate for healing.

In all cases, birds should receive their normal complete feed pellets (age-appropriate) free-choice. I find sick birds respond more positively to crumbles than pellets; I'll put pellets in the blender for them. I find they react even more positively to damp (not wet) crumbles. So for an ill bird, I will feed them at least one feeding a day of crumbles dampened with water, water with yogurt, or something similar. You can sneak their probiotics to them this way. You can also use vitamin/electrolyte treated water to dampen the crumbles.

I also am a strong believer in additional vitamins for birds with respiratory illness. Vitamin A is a particularly good vitamin, very important for mucus membranes, respiratory problems, and ocular health. I really like to use Enfamil's PolyViSol liquid vitamins directly in the beak of a bird to facilitate healing. For babies, 1 drop, for medium birds 2 drops, for adults 2-3 drops daily in the beak. OR you can drop the drops onto a tiny piece of egg yolk (boiled). The liquid form of vitamin allows you to give vitamins while meds are in the water. Because it's eaten quickly, it doesn't degrade in the light or water. Give daily during medication and possibly a week thereafter.

Another option, if you give shots of antibiotics, is to use a better-quality vitamin/mineral product like Aviacharge in their water - as labeled for at least 4 days as their sole source of water unless they won't drink it.

Other nutritional: You can offer things to tempt the birds to eat if they won't: boiled egg yolk, a tiny bit of applesauce, cooked oatmeal, etc. Use those things to 'hide' the vitamins and probiotics - use a tiny bit. Make all treats purposeful and healthy.

MISC:
It's very important for all birds to have good clean air. Ventilation and air quality is particularly important to ill birds who are having a hard time breathing anyway. Make sure to pay careful attention to this, to their bedding, etc. Make sure the bedding stays dry and non-dusty. If you use shavings, try putting the shavings in a box and shaking them first - then scoop the bedding off the top (The dust settles to the bottom).

Also be sure to always do your 'sick-bird-chores' last after all other birds. Droplets fall on the ground, get on your shoes, spread to the other birds. ASo either use different shoes or wipe your shoes with anti-bacterial after doing the sick birds. Using a large man's shirt over your clothes, one you'll only put on in the sick bird room and take off before leaving it - is another excellent option.

I find that if you really bombard a respiratory illness from all sides the birds heal more quickly and thoroughly. I hope this information has helped you. Please email me if you have any questions, or contact me here through this board. In the mean time, the best of luck to you!!
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[2468Chickensrgr8]

Great information ...thanks for helping myself me

...

 

[threehorses]

Thank you, and you're welcome.

 

[cw]

hey threehorses whats your take on treating calves with bacterial pnomnia, with terramycin

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
I couldn't begin to say as I'm not good with cattle illnesses and only have experience pushing them not treating them.

I know I have seen a lot of terramycin (which is really oxytetracycline) marketed for bacterial pneumonia as well as other issues. So are the penicillins, and I know that 'cillins are good for deep lower respiratory infections.

I can tell you that any time you use any antibiotic with calves, you will want to get some good Probios and treat them with that during and after medication to keep them from getting the scours. It's important in poultry, but particularly important in our grass eating, bacterial dependent stock. Especially for cattle with their rumen and reticulum being so heavily bacteria-dependent. Antibiotics unfortunately kill good bacteria with the bad. I've studied a bit about their digestion, feed design, and what not just as a sort of side- hobby, and had a nice course in feed design that covered comparitive anatomy and digestion. Really neat stuff.

For sure though - with any 'mycin or 'cycline, you don't want to give them a lot of milk products (probios's whey base is fine) as the calcium will bind with the meds and deactivate it. Not a good deal.

I suppose the cattle industry has probably had the same issues with the 'cyclines being given too often. But I bet they haven't been giving tetracycline quite as often as a preventative or by small herd/flock people giving a teaspoon here or there. That's where the problem lays with the tetracyclines and whatnot these days. It's all the people being given the foil packages for anything, even if the tetracycline didn't even apply. "The bird's sick? Give it this." Nevermind if it was wormy, or not fed right. Then they give a sip of this or that. A cattleman usually seems to just hit the problem and not mess about with it.

Of course, ,with any antibiotic, the general rule is that if you don't see an effect in about four days, likely the problem either isn't bacterial - or isn't the type of bacteria covered by that antibiotic. Or that antibiotic alone, as is sometimes the case with the mycins now. Some of the mycins work wonderfully paired together but weakly apart.

Honestly, if I had a calf with pneumonia, I'd ask my livestock vet which med. They'll know which meds are pretty much defunct now, and which ones are current better than I could.

 

[cw]

ok thanks, asked the vet said that would be fine unless no difffernce in a week or so

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
That sounds about right - four days, no change, change meds. Would you please let me know what he recommends if you do have to change? I'm curious now.

 

[cw]

sure. though i think the little guy is gonna beat it (pnomonia)hes been progresson every day this week, i dont think he ll go on anything else, myguess would be something like a shot of la 200 though i dont know

 

[threehorses]

Yeah I kept wanting to say "Lincomycin!!" but that would be unfair of me if I don't really REALLY know to make the suggestion. /blush I know my cattle owning friends love the stuff.

Great on the progression. Sounds like it was the right med!