Why is blue and lavender together dreaded?Some have said it's just a bad blue. That its pretty hard to get them even in coloring. So yeah I agree it's not the dreaded bluvender.
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Why is blue and lavender together dreaded?Some have said it's just a bad blue. That its pretty hard to get them even in coloring. So yeah I agree it's not the dreaded bluvender.
I think I have finally figured that out. Lavender has links to the feather shredder gene and it can transfer it to other colors if the lavender birds have it. It's also said it makes it have inconsistency in the color of the bird I don't believe this much as that's a personal opinion. It's also said it's hared to weed out of a blue line because it's hard to tell apart from the blues. That last one is why I don't trust the opinion one in that it makes crappie color. If you can't tell them apart then you can't say it's crappie.Why is blue and lavender together dreaded?
I am not well versed in the interactions with melanizers. Legbars are not my principle interest with regard to gold/silver. I make extensive use of that gene in my Welbars (Crele Welsummers) where I always use a heterozygous cockerel in the breeding pen so that about half the pullet chicks (easily sexed at hatch) are silver and half gold. This aligns well with local chick demand, where different colored chicks are a definite advantage.@dheltzel I would love your opinion on the cream legbar Sexlinked Silver vs Gold debate. I have always held the belief of gold myself but recently have doubts.
I’d love to know your thoughts!
This is a great point, insight and test to make. @NatJ are you familiar with any photos of chick down involving both the Homozygous silver gene and MH? Would this down be distinguishable from gold? It appears oftentimes a heterozygous gold shows more gold down than silver in the chick.I am not well versed in the interactions with melanizers. Legbars are not my principle interest with regard to gold/silver. I make extensive use of that gene in my Welbars (Crele Welsummers) where I always use a heterozygous cockerel in the breeding pen so that about half the pullet chicks (easily sexed at hatch) are silver and half gold. This aligns well with local chick demand, where different colored chicks are a definite advantage.
But this does apply to Legbars because I always add Cream Legbar pullets (culls from the breeders I raise) to the Welbar breeding pen to make autosexing Olive Eggers. These also come out roughly half silvers, as one would expect.
A breeder wants to get Legbar chicks from me to build a sustainable flock for eggs and selling chicks. They also want to create Olive Eggers, so I am including some Welbar pullet chicks to live in the pen with the Legbars. I told them the OE pullet chicks would be gold, as I never see silver chicks hatching from the Cream Legbars. In this case it would not really matter for people buying OE chicks from them, but it would give you a definitive test mating to determine the silver/gold allele status of the cock. If you were to add a non-cream, non-lavender pullet to your legbar flock and hatch those eggs, you would get more information about whether the cock has any silver.
It appears oftentimes a heterozygous gold shows more gold down than silver in the chick.
Even though MH does not typically affect down, do you think there is a possibility that it does in the event of a silver male that would normally show no red, instead does due to Mh?
@NatJ are you familiar with any photos of chick down involving both the Homozygous silver gene and MH? Would this down be distinguishable from gold?
That’s what it looks like to me too. I believe it has to do with the melanizers that you get some of the unevenness in the blue colors, but I think the lavender and blue makes the blues super light and your blue has a lot of dark markings. I know it’s not desired to look the way your bird is, but I think she’s really pretty! I’m drawn to the unique more than the uniform…so I have a tough time not loving the ones that don’t “fit”. I have a lavender that carries blue and I’ve been told that people will do it for their lavender line to make the lavender coloring more clean.Some have said it's just a bad blue. That its pretty hard to get them even in coloring. So yeah I agree it's not the dreaded bluvender.
I'm not 100% certain on this, but aren't Salmon Faverolles homozygous silver with mahogany? I know they are pure for silver because I've made gold sex-links using a gold rooster over a Salmon Faverolles hen, and the cockerel that hatched was clearly a heterozygous for gold/silver and the pullet was a darker gold/red. I just don't know if their heavy red pigments are due to mahogany or autosomal red. That's the only pure breed example that I can think of.This is a great point, insight and test to make. @NatJ are you familiar with any photos of chick down involving both the Homozygous silver gene and MH? Would this down be distinguishable from gold? It appears oftentimes a heterozygous gold shows more gold down than silver in the chick.
I also want to add that I have had a rooster in the past that had two silver genes while also having red wing bows. I don't know what caused the red, but it appeared to be inherited in an autosomal dominate manner when looking at the sons. The three male offspring from that rooster were all gold/silver splits, two of which had distinctly more red shoulders. All the pullets produced were clearly silver. Originally, I believed him to be a gold/silver split because of the red wing bows but every one of his offspring, when crossed to a gold hen (Porcelain D'Uccle), had the silver gene. It could have been a coincidence because there were only five hatched, but I would have expected at least one gold. After comparing him to his sons, he was distinctly more clean white than them, too. If you'd like, I have photos of this rooster and his offspring that I can share.Starting with Males - A double silver gene will remove the red from the bird. Even at the Bow and shoulders where is it most prominent.
The best salmon faverolles contain Mh. It makes their autosomal red, particularly on the shoulders richer. My understanding is this also influences the tail color on hens and less black will be present due to red being enhanced and turning some of these tail feathers more brown. This assumes no other Melanizers are present.I'm not 100% certain on this, but aren't Salmon Faverolles homozygous silver with mahogany? I know they are pure for silver because I've made gold sex-links using a gold rooster over a Salmon Faverolles hen, and the cockerel that hatched was clearly a heterozygous for gold/silver and the pullet was a darker gold/red.
If the rooster was heterozygous and we are basing this on one pullet it would be hard to know if she was truly gold or silver based in this scenario if the assumption is right. I am also hoping to see the affect on E+ rather than EWhthe cockerel that hatched was clearly a heterozygous for gold/silver and the pullet was a darker gold/red. I just don't know if their heavy red pigments are due to mahogany or autosomal red. That's the only pure breed example that I can think of.
I also want to add that I have had a rooster in the past that had two silver genes while also having red wing bows. I don't know what caused the red, but it appeared to be inherited in an autosomal dominate manner when looking at the sons. The three male offspring from that rooster were all gold/silver splits, two of which had distinctly more red shoulders. All the pullets produced were clearly silver. Originally, I believed him to be a gold/silver split because of the red wing bows but every one of his offspring, when crossed to a gold hen (Porcelain D'Uccle), had the silver gene. It could have been a coincidence because there were only five hatched, but I would have expected at least one gold. After comparing him to his sons, he was distinctly more clean white than them, too. If you'd like, I have photos of this rooster and his offspring that I can share.
It will take some time, but there are certainly some questions here, and some good ideas from prior replies to test out.I can't really touch on any of your other points since I don't have much experience with pure or correct to type Cream Legbars. The rooster I currently have, the gold mentioned above, was sold as a Cream Legbar, but has single factor barring, only one crest gene, and is likely lacking the cream gene as well.
I completely agree with your hypothesis of the mahogany gene being mostly restricted to the backs of hens. If it is mahogany in Faverolles, then that is very obvious with the backs and not the breasts of the hens being salmon. I would expect a silver wheaten hen to be mostly white and that is not what is seen at all.
I definitely would be curious to see how your ideas would result because I could see them solving several of the problems typically observed in Cream Legbars and it's fascinating to think about how all these genes could interact with each other.
After reading the links you provided, I can see why this is such an interesting topic to you. As for the pullet, I'm almost 100% certain she is gold. As a chick she hatched out brown down with the faint chipmunk stripe you sometimes see on e+/eWh chicks. Interestingly enough, the cockerel of the same cross lacked the stripe. As an adult she is mostly red and salmon colored and is much more red than any of the Favorolles I've ever raised. Wish I had a photo of her at hatch for you, but she was an emergency assist so photos were the last thing I was thinking about.If the rooster was heterozygous and we are basing this on one pullet it would be hard to know if she was truly gold or silver based in this scenario if the assumption is right. I am also hoping to see the affect on E+ rather than EWh
I believe this is on me for misreading your original post. Some how I read it as you saying that S/S roosters couldn't show red shoulders, so my bad.Silver birds even without Mh do leak red in the shoulders frequently. This is autosomal red. How much leakage and coverage depends on how much autosomal red. Whether that is based on multiple genes that is really the question. I would love to see the photos! However I’m not sure how relatable the offspring may be with the porcelain related genes in play.
I just have to say, those were incredibly interesting articles! I hadn't seen a lot on autosomal red and mahogany before, so those were fascinating. The examples of the red silver cocks were really interesting. One thing that I noticed was there seemed to be a location on them that the silver showed through. On the 2023 article you could see it in the wing triangle, and the 2022 on the hackles. Even in those areas, the silver was a golden color.I think we see some of this explained well in these articles
Autosomal Red March 2023
Autosomal Red Sept 2022
It doesn’t however touch on chick down, which is a big curiosity of mine.
It does showcase some examples of e+ silver hens and cocks with Ar and assumingly Mh. In the hens that are E+ we can see the brown stippling called for in legbars created from it where otherwise a silver hen would have more grey looking plumage. We also see cocks that appear cream colored.
On your final speculation, it made me think of something I've read here about blue egg layers. I've heard in blue egg laying breeds, the pullet's first eggs and bantam eggs are typically more intensely colored than those of larger breeds. This would be due to the pigments being more concentrated over a smaller area. Maybe some one with more experience here could chime in here. It could be that the same could be happening with red pigments in feathers, but again this is more speculation.An observation I have had is it seems like the affects of this combination produce a stronger gold color on smaller breeds, and a lighter cream color on larger. This is pure speculation and I am sure there is more to it like potentially feather quality and other enhancers, however it feels like there is a threshold and a concentration required to show through the silver.
this guy is super unique.