Thoughts and Observations on Protein

[Krux5506]

Yes, that's a below minimum recommend by a significant margin.

Its because they removed the soy. Its one of the few decent Met sources in the plant world.

Here's the goofy thing though...They have another corn/soy free feed but it's 16% protein. THAT feed has .5% methionine which is a good level. the one i got, which is 18% protein also corn/soy free is the one that's .2% methionine. Seems like a very bizarre oversight to me. Here's the links to both if you want to see...

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-non-gmo-16-protein-soy-corn/dp/952006

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-organic-18-protein-soy-corn/dp/951974

It looks like for whatever reason, the organic one (the 18%er) lacks methionine but the non GMO one doesn't.

 

[RoyalChick]

Here's the goofy thing though...They have another corn/soy free feed but it's 16% protein. THAT feed has .5% methionine which is a good level. the one i got, which is 18% protein also corn/soy free is the one that's .2% methionine. Seems like a very bizarre oversight to me. Here's the links to both if you want to see...

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-non-gmo-16-protein-soy-corn/dp/952006

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-organic-18-protein-soy-corn/dp/951974

It looks like for whatever reason, the organic one (the 18%er) lacks methionine but the non GMO one doesn't.

And this is why so many of us are confused!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Here's the goofy thing though...They have another corn/soy free feed but it's 16% protein. THAT feed has .5% methionine which is a good level. the one i got, which is 18% protein also corn/soy free is the one that's .2% methionine. Seems like a very bizarre oversight to me. Here's the links to both if you want to see...

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-non-gmo-16-protein-soy-corn/dp/952006

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-organic-18-protein-soy-corn/dp/951974

It looks like for whatever reason, the organic one (the 18%er) lacks methionine but the non GMO one doesn't.

I'm going to go check the main website for that manufacturer, I think that chewy has the ingredients list wrong. One of the ingredient lists, the one for the organic with almost no methionine, list DL methionine right after the vitamin A additive. It's almost impossible to have methionine at point two a DL methionine additive at any normal rate of inclusion. On the other hand the non-organic with the 0.5 methionine does not list DL methionine but there's no obvious source of increased methionine anywhere in the feed mix. So I suspect they have the two ingredient list swamped. We'll look into it when I'm not on my cell phone and can read more than two ingredients at a time

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Here's the goofy thing though...They have another corn/soy free feed but it's 16% protein. THAT feed has .5% methionine which is a good level. the one i got, which is 18% protein also corn/soy free is the one that's .2% methionine. Seems like a very bizarre oversight to me. Here's the links to both if you want to see...

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-non-gmo-16-protein-soy-corn/dp/952006

https://www.chewy.com/bar-ale-organic-18-protein-soy-corn/dp/951974

It looks like for whatever reason, the organic one (the 18%er) lacks methionine but the non GMO one doesn't.

MUCH better on a computer.

Here's the ingredients on the first on, ontil we reach the synthetic Met addative:

Wheat - Ground, Ground Peas, Sunflower Meal, Wheat Millrun, Calcium Carbonate, Organic Sesame Seed Meal, Flaxseed Meal, Monocalcium Phosphate, DL-Methionine...


Now, here's the ingredients on the second until we hit the synthetic Met addative:

Organic Ground Wheat, Organic Sesame Seed Meal, Organic Wheat Millrun, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Sodium Chloride, Diatomaceous earth, Choline Chloride, Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Limestone Ground, Zinc Proteinate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin Supplement, Copper Sulfate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Basic Copper Chloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Ethylendianmine Dihydroiodide, Folic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, DLMethionine

THERE is your difference.

They have to be using low protein soft wheat, and there must be very little sesame seed meal. Soft wheat is usually given a Met level around 0.2% ( a little less, as fed), so basically the Organic Sesame Seed meal is compensating for the 5% of the feed or so with no protein - your calcium sources, phosphorous sources, vitamins, salt, and trace minerals....

and I therefore conclude that Chewy did get the labels right.

 

[Krux5506]

They have to be using low protein soft wheat, and there must be very little sesame seed meal. Soft wheat is usually given a Met level around 0.2% ( a little less, as fed), so basically the Organic Sesame Seed meal is compensating for the 5% of the feed or so with no protein - your calcium sources, phosphorous sources, vitamins, salt, and trace minerals....

and I therefore conclude that Chewy did get the labels right.

I went back to the old chick feed. What in your opinion is an excessive level for methionine specifically for laying birds? The chick feed I went back to now lists .6% but the previous bags were .5%. Curious why they would bump it up a bit and I think it's one of the higher levels I've seen.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You won't find an excessive level of Met in Chicken feed, unless there is an error in mixing.

Is it theoretically possible? Sure. But proteins with high met levels are among the most expensive ingredients in the bag, and as I said, its hard to find in nature, particularly among plant products.

In a geese study, they added 1% Met to the standard diet (0.38%) to induce problems, which is about 3x what you are likely to find in even a high Met level feed. Those birds had reduced size and heart problems. Too much of a good thing...

I should note that the study also found that the effects of those excess Met levels was partially moderated by extra Betaine, which is most present in wheat and wheat products.

/edit and yes, that's definitely among the highest, if not the highest, level I've seen as well. More typically, a high Met feed is 0.45. Some Broiler feed regimen are up to 0.6% for the first three weeks, after which it drops to 0.45 or 0.5% for the remainder of their time before culling, but I've not seen those feeds on the shelf, only in recommends for how to raise the biggest high yield broilers in the least time.

If you are really bored, these people, who know a bit about hi yield birds, have a manual for how to raise their strains (my link is broken, they moved the manual). It should still be on the website somewhere. Anyhow, its a good (though specific to the Cobb 500 and similar) read on dietary expectations, minimum conditions, etc.

 

[Huntmaster]

Turkey and gamebird starter usually has higher lysine and methionine. My lowest used for them is 0.50- 0.58 and even used as high as 0.7. So, there is higher avail. but this is for my turkeys and gamebirds needs my grower is 0.50.

 

[Sally PB]

have a manual for how to raise their strains

https://cobbgenetics.com/resource/118

Is this it?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

https://cobbgenetics.com/resource/118

Is this it?

Yes, I suspect that it is, thanks! I've got a copy stashed somewhere on my computer. That, or its this one.
https://cobbgenetics.com/assets/Cobb-Files/Broiler-Guide_English-2021-min.pdf

One is for maintaining a breeder flock, the other is for the table flock.

Both are informative (if dry) reads.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Turkey and gamebird starter usually has higher lysine and methionine. My lowest used for them is 0.50- 0.58 and even used as high as 0.7. So, there is higher avail. but this is for my turkeys and gamebirds needs my grower is 0.50.

Thank you. I've made no study of turkey feed needs. Good to know.