Turkey Breed?

[retlaw]

It will be like Christmas time when all those eggs start to hatch not knowing what you are going to get.

I have found that part about mix breeding the best.

Laggerdogger,
you seem to know a lot about mix breeding.
So I would like to ask you a question about it.

Since this thread is about turkey breeds I don't think that I am highjacking it.
Not my intentions anyway.

I have a black blue slate tom that I matched up with two splash blue slate hens. (different gene pool)
After a season of breeding them I was startle to see a few chicks being hatch in a calico type pattern.
Of about 40 hatches I had three born a dark calico and about 5 to 10 a very light calico, almost all grey.

So I contacted the breeder and found out there was a mishap that happened the year before and that 4 months before the two breeds she was breeding (blue slates, ridley bronze) were separated that there was some mounting going on.

You read that right, four months after the breeds were separated the slate hens started laying with some cross contamination from the ridley bronze four months prior.

The breeder apologized up and down and thought that she separated all the cross breed birds for processing.

I was not to upset because the birds are for me eating and I got them for a clean food source and not to show off the blood line.
And it made it way more exciting at hatching time to see what the results of the cross breeding gave me.
Plus those genes must be super genes to last four months. (one hell of a tom or hen)

I think the tom is caring this cross breeding gene,
he has some slight colouring on his black feathers (metallic) with one single tail feather like a bronze pattern.
The hens show no sign of this.

So I kept another hen from this tom that was the only female of the three dark calico coloured chicks.
The calico clouring turned out to be the ridley bronze pattern.

So them this year I will breed the black blue slate tom which I think has the bronze gene cross in him.
The two splash hens that I think are pure.
And the ridley bronze pattern blue slate cross hen.

I am going to have rainbows at hatching time.lol

Which genes are going to be dominant and which ones will be recessive at hatching time this years?
I am still over two months away from hatching , there is a pile of snow still on the ground here.

thanks in advance for any response you might give.

 

[Lagerdogger]

What is the only breed of turkey you are referring to , since every time I cross a Holland white with a Holland white, I do not get a cross, just another Holland White? Just curious!

This debate again???? Actually, I find this an interesting question, and I'm sure I've written out several opinions. Perhaps they (my opinions) change over time. I think we all agree that all the turkey varieties are the same species...Turkey. However, all dogs came from wolves, and we consider them different species now. But let's say we still all have the same species. Certainly there are color genes, most of which are well understood. If color was the only difference between different heritage strains, then we just have color varieties like black and yellow labrador retrievers. However, there seem top be other traits besides color attached to some turkey varieties. For example, the Holland whites mentioned above have proportionately shorter legs and more breast meat than Narragansetts of Bourbon reds. Royal Palms, are smaller than most varieties, and have proportionately less breast meat. Midget whites are smaller yet.

So the question is...are these traits genetically tied to the color genes, or have they just been bred for in a few dominant lines. For example, one can cross royal palms with standard bronzes. The offspring look like standard bronzes and Narragansetts. And you can keep breeding these things back to standard bronzes so that they are nice and big. If you then start crossing these birds with each other, every now and then they will throw a bird colored like a royal palm. If these occasional palms are no larger than the original palms and have characteristic palm breast muscles, one could argue that there are physical traits other than just color linked closely with the genes that make up the royal palm color. This would be a breed. If, however, the new royal palm is just as large as the standard bronzes in the breeding pool, and has heavier breasts, then royal palm would just be a color variety, and the other traits will just have been selected for by breeders over time. I have not done this experiment. Anyone?

The distinction between variety, breed, subspecies, and species is blurred at best in the natural world. Why should we expect less from turkeys?

 

[Lagerdogger]

I have a black blue slate tom that I matched up with two splash blue slate hens. (different gene pool)
After a season of breeding them I was startle to see a few chicks being hatch in a calico type pattern.
Of about 40 hatches I had three born a dark calico and about 5 to 10 a very light calico, almost all grey.

So I contacted the breeder and found out there was a mishap that happened the year before and that 4 months before the two breeds she was breeding (blue slates, ridley bronze) were separated that there was some mounting going on.

I assume that by black blue slate, you mean a Black based slate turkey BBDd (the Bs are black based genes, and the D is a dominant blue gene, while d is a recessive not blue gene). Splash blue slates are the same, except they have black specks in the blue, but it is not from extra genes. Ridley bronze have the same color genes as standard bronze b+b+dd (the b+ are recessive bronze-based genes, the ds are recessive not blue genes. There are numerous other color genes in both these birds, but they are not important for the question at hand). It is possible, then, that your slates are Bb+Dd (one black based, one bronze based gene). If so, you could combine them to get b+b+Dd, which is a bronze based slate. If either you tom or hens are from an uncontaminated line, it would take two generations to get this combination. The blue wash over the bronze base can produce patterned birds,which you may be referring to as Calico. Calico is a royal palm with a single red gene, so certainly what you are seeing is not technically calico.

If you are breeding Bb+Dd, you should be able to tell because the offspring will include some standard bronze (about 1 in 4).

Without more information, its hard to say more. Hope this was helpful.

Kevin Porte'rs website has a good discussion of slate genes http://www.porterturkeys.com/slateselfblue.htm

 

[Celie]

It will be like Christmas time when all those eggs start to hatch not knowing what you are going to get.

I have found that part about mix breeding the best.

Laggerdogger,
you seem to know a lot about mix breeding.
So I would like to ask you a question about it.

Since this thread is about turkey breeds I don't think that I am highjacking it.
Not my intentions anyway.

I have a black blue slate tom that I matched up with two splash blue slate hens. (different gene pool)
After a season of breeding them I was startle to see a few chicks being hatch in a calico type pattern.
Of about 40 hatches I had three born a dark calico and about 5 to 10 a very light calico, almost all grey.

So I contacted the breeder and found out there was a mishap that happened the year before and that 4 months before the two breeds she was breeding (blue slates, ridley bronze) were separated that there was some mounting going on.

You read that right, four months after the breeds were separated the slate hens started laying with some cross contamination from the ridley bronze four months prior.

The breeder apologized up and down and thought that she separated all the cross breed birds for processing.

I was not to upset because the birds are for me eating and I got them for a clean food source and not to show off the blood line.
And it made it way more exciting at hatching time to see what the results of the cross breeding gave me.
Plus those genes must be super genes to last four months. (one hell of a tom or hen)

I think the tom is caring this cross breeding gene,
he has some slight colouring on his black feathers (metallic) with one single tail feather like a bronze pattern.
The hens show no sign of this.

So I kept another hen from this tom that was the only female of the three dark calico coloured chicks.
The calico clouring turned out to be the ridley bronze pattern.

So them this year I will breed the black blue slate tom which I think has the bronze gene cross in him.
The two splash hens that I think are pure.
And the ridley bronze pattern blue slate cross hen.

I am going to have rainbows at hatching time.lol

Which genes are going to be dominant and which ones will be recessive at hatching time this years?
I am still over two months away from hatching , there is a pile of snow still on the ground here.

thanks in advance for any response you might give.

The tom's SPERM would have to have been viable inside the hen for 4 MONTHS, tell me you did not fall for that line! Please!!!!

 

[Celie]

This debate again???? Actually, I find this an interesting question, and I'm sure I've written out several opinions. Perhaps they (my opinions) change over time. I think we all agree that all the turkey varieties are the same species...Turkey. However, all dogs came from wolves, and we consider them different species now. But let's say we still all have the same species. Certainly there are color genes, most of which are well understood. If color was the only difference between different heritage strains, then we just have color varieties like black and yellow labrador retrievers. However, there seem top be other traits besides color attached to some turkey varieties. For example, the Holland whites mentioned above have proportionately shorter legs and more breast meat than Narragansetts of Bourbon reds. Royal Palms, are smaller than most varieties, and have proportionately less breast meat. Midget whites are smaller yet.

So the question is...are these traits genetically tied to the color genes, or have they just been bred for in a few dominant lines. For example, one can cross royal palms with standard bronzes. The offspring look like standard bronzes and Narragansetts. And you can keep breeding these things back to standard bronzes so that they are nice and big. If you then start crossing these birds with each other, every now and then they will throw a bird colored like a royal palm. If these occasional palms are no larger than the original palms and have characteristic palm breast muscles, one could argue that there are physical traits other than just color linked closely with the genes that make up the royal palm color. This would be a breed. If, however, the new royal palm is just as large as the standard bronzes in the breeding pool, and has heavier breasts, then royal palm would just be a color variety, and the other traits will just have been selected for by breeders over time. I have not done this experiment. Anyone?

The distinction between variety, breed, subspecies, and species is blurred at best in the natural world. Why should we expect less from turkeys?

Turkeys are all the same species, yes.And even though, all dogs are the same species, the Breeds are different, just like turkeys! Breeds will cross in nature too, like dogs and wolves, but species will not, like dogs and cats, unless man forces the mix, like the mule, which was close enough for man to mess up, an unnatural cross resulting in sterile offspring and an abomination!

 

[retlaw]

The tom's SPERM would have to have been viable inside the hen for 4 MONTHS, tell me you did not fall for that line! Please!!!!

I have no reason not to believe her.
I seen her farm yard and the turkeys are well inclosed.
She had a great collection of breeding pairs that she obviously put some time into to make sure the blood lines where diverse.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Place/12000000/Partnering/TurkeySuccess.pdf

These Dr.s say sperm can last up to 10 weeks in a hen.

So who knows for sure? If the stars were right that night, why not longer?

 

[retlaw]

In this Alberta chicken forum
http://albertachickensetc.punbb-hosting.com/viewtopic.php?id=22896

tung koon wrote a post:
I picked up some turkeys in january royal and pencil palms ,sweetgrass and small hollands seperated them into breeding pens
just hatched some poults out and a few look like blue slates so they do last awhile

and he made that post on June 2nd.
makes sense because in Alberta May June is when hatching takes place.

So lets say he picked up those turkeys in late January and hatched the eggs on June 1st.
Minus a month for incubation.
That means those hens were holding sperm for over three months.

That's over the 70 day mark the Dr.s have quoted.

 

[Celie]

"Up to 10 weeks" does not 4 months make. 10 weeks = 70 days, 4 months = 120 days, not quite twice as long. I think a tom got out and jumped the fence, so to say!

 

[retlaw]

The Dr.s study said 10 weeks which is 2 1/2 months.
And I didn't see what breed he was using for the study.
Are there different times per breed or are they all the same? I don't know.
Can a "super hen" or "super tom" dna make a difference? I don't know.

tung koon from the Alberta chicken forum said it happened to him after a minimum time of 3 months of being separated.

These are long times anyway one looks at it.

I tend to go the way of "anything can happen", and "who am I to say its wrong?"

It doesn't matter how the cross breeding happened because I can't change it.
But after hearing and reading that some people are claiming 3 to 4 months I would not take that chance if I wanted to keep the blood line pure.