Vermont

[Metella]

sorry to hear your first chicken love is doing poorly ....

I had a favorite roo I kept in a sling in a box - did all I could and ultimatly had to euthanize him - yours is younger so the tendons and muscels may respond better. Frankly - a sick chicken has very little energy reserves to fall back on and most make it or not - dispite our help - so now I rarely do more than make sure they are not picked on by others, have a lot of warm fluffy saw dust and all the quality food and fresh water I can get them - it doesn't hurt to put electrolite powder in their water - you can get that at any farm store - little chick starter packets.

Pyxis may have more specific advise for you - I don't want to be negative, but I find most that need direct and hard intervention don't make it. There are exceptions - so I am not telling you to give up - just to be mentally ready.

If it passes on - I just got a pet rooster because a family couldn't keep it in the city - it is bound for the stew pot .... if you wanted this fellow - I'd be glad to pass him along to you so you can keep up with your chicken education !

Good luck - and please share back here on what happens and then keep posting so we can intervein earlier

 

[RareAvis]

Thank you, Metella.

Welp, the warm fluffy sawdust is likely not going to happen, as I'm pretty sure it would not do any wonders for my skin, and she is quite attached the warm fluffy pillow I sleep on.



The good news?

No chance of Malaria!


...

That may sound like a joke, but a recent peer reviewed journal published a study of preventive measures used in Africa against malaria.

It does ring of superstition and witchcraft, but it's valid: chickens exude a chemical odor we cannot sense, but mosquitoes avoid like the plague {ha ha...}... truth. They're now recommending this as a low cost measure to prevent malaria: sleep with a chicken under the mosquito net: in the bed, quite near each human.

I imagine that this will be quite a boon in rural areas affected by Zika, too.

Certainly, those chickens that are kept as co-sleepers need to be mite free and vetted and not part of a huge flock or a commercial operation to cut down on the chances of zoonotic diseases such as avian flu, but in the case of chickens like Sadie, this is not an issue.

And yes: I'm proud to say: I sleep with a chique baby.

She wouldn't have it any other way, at least for now.

I do hope to adapt her to a hen house, but she'd be all alone. My ultimate goal is to reintegrate her into a ten-strong flock that a neighbor keeps, but clearly, her claw must be healed before any such introduction would be possible.

For now, it's me, Mr. Stray-Who-Is-My-Master, and SadieSade: sharing the comfy.


;D


Me? Never in a million years.


Yet? I've adapted better than I thought ever imaginable.


The sling would be a boon for naps and rest periods, as an adjunct to PT; or perhaps a more concentrated rest approach: but we're not certain that full rest would be good; indeed, perhaps more harmful than good, as there is currently thought to be no joint dislocation.


But hey? I'm open to trying anything.

After all... what could faze me now? I'm already three minutes past crazypants...

{and just wait til I'm the beneficiary of breakfast in bed. Mmmm mmm. Nothin'll beat an egg so fresh-fresh-fresh; except the convenience of having it roll straight into my mouth. We're talkin' FULL-ON nutso, by then...}


;p


Thanks.


~RA

 

[Metella]

ha ha ha crazypants ! WE all are.

My chickens have very little issue with mosquitoes - so I figure that is valid - but the poop and feather dander would get me - so I might make a RING of chickens around my bed but not in it. ha ha ha

Also - yes - chickens are flock animals - and once all else is the same - they are happier and more active when in with at least one other chicken - a handful is better.

We also love pictures here -so post when you can

Oh - nice straw or hay will keep them warm and comfortable and kinda propped up off a bad leg too

 

[RareAvis]

Hey Metella... Can I drag and drop photos, or do I have to choose from file/urls?

New at this, here...

Thank you!

By the by... this is weird... but?

She hencrows.

The vet and the person I got her from both identified her as a girl.

She might have a different idea.

I've read a lot about this... and the truth is? Because I've never met a chicken before, I can't tell if she's developing normally, or possibly beginning to manifest some secondary male characteristics. Either way, she's the sweetest thing ever; I just find her to be exceptionally fascinating, too, as a case study.

Clearly, she's my baby girl...ish... and not a textbook entry; but I am thoroughly galvanized.


What would be the odds: my first chicken, going through a spontaneous sex reversal?

Or partially so?

I'm flabbergasted at the hencrowing. I had no idea. I understand, now, that it's a not uncommon phenomenon, but I swear?

I had to wipe myself off the ceiling. I verily dripped from above, so knocked into orbit I was. Through the stratosphere.

COMPLETELY blew me away. After, of course, I figured out she wasn't dying a grisly death by phantom ghoul.

Really. Weird. Chicken.



Couldn't be more perfect...


;D

 

[Metella]

Verily, methinks the most likely event is she was he all along.

I am experienced and for the most part never know for sure until they are well into maturity - 7 to 10 months sometimes, depending on the breed and type of comb.

 

[Metella]

Oh - as far as adding pics - that depends on your device .. so just nose around and try things - that is how I learned.

 

[Pyxis]

That's quite a backstory! Poor thing, what was she eating before you took her in? Since she is only 13 weeks old, you are trying to put her on a chick starter, right? Have you tried fermenting it? They seem to love it that way and as a bonus it's actually nutritionally better. Here is a link about it that you can look into. Additionally you may try putting live mealworms in her feed to get her to peck at it (she will love the mealworms too). You can also give her healthy treats such as scrambled eggs and yogurt and those she should gobble right up. As a final note, she will NOT allow herself to starve to death if there is a source of food there for her. If you have to, just don't feed her until she eats the chick feed. She'll get hungry within a day and start eating it.

If you suspect a nutrient deficiency I highly recommend picking up some Poultry Nutri-Drench and adding it to her water. That stuff is awesome and is packed with everything she could need.

Can you post a picture of what is going on with her leg? Since she was attacked by a dog I am more inclined to believe it is an injury rather than gout, especially since it is not responding to gout treatment.

The all black chickens you talk about are silkies, I believe, which may be what Sadie is, or a silkie cross. There is another breed of all black chicken here is this country, but they are exceedingly rare and expensive and Sadie's not likely to be that. However, the one in my avatar is a hen of this breed (ayam cemani, I breed them) so you could compare Sadie to her and see what you think.

By the way, if "she" is crowing at 13 weeks, he's probably a boy. Pictures of him will allow us to tell you. To add pictures (it sounds like you're using a computer and not a mobile device) in the text editor click the icon that looks like a picture of the moon above two mountains. There you will be able to upload to picture to BYC.

Finally, it seems like your vet is awesome with trying to work with you on treating a chicken, but as you said a lot of vets have no experience with it and if they can't tell the gender at this age then that's a sign the vet probably doesn't know much about them. I can point you in the direction of a couple vets that see chickens fairly regularly if you would like. They might be a long drive for you though.

 

[RareAvis]

Hi, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.

I've continued to research and I've not let up in trying to help Sadie; I've just been offline most of this week, due to personal reasons... I don't mind sharing if you're not offended by the TMI thing...I just feel like it's important that you know that I'm taking this very, very seriously and my being offline was a rather extraordinary event. My Dad passed away last year at about this time {2 September} and his birthday would have been 24 October, just a few days ago. This was a very special week for my family; extended; and being available for family, who hardly ever see one another all as a group {nieces, nephews my way older half brothers' families, Stepmom in CT} and recently did, and reconnected...I just needed time. Thank you for understanding and not jumping to conclusions that I'm treating Sadie's ordeal with insouciance; I remain completely devoted.

I agree with you about the injury and so did my Vet; but he thought it went beyond that; and that, indeed, the reason her foot looked SO mangled was that she'd 'Turned in' or 'Curled in' her toes prior to the canid attack, and the assault worsened it; and that this is why after each splint we've tried, the toes have begun to curl again.

So, I'm thinking?

1. Assault: DEFINITE.... but a} could be ONLY problem, the rest is misdiagnosed I. Splint not on long enough OR

II. Splint itself caused problems that APPEARED gout-like {She was walking on her heel and then forearm with splint... I'm CONVINCED this could [but not definitively did] cause the swelling and joint that was used as criteria in diagnosing gout; she also has no spurs, and only one claw/leg is affected....

2. GOUT may/not be root cause or even an issue: I'm leaning towards NOT because a} symptoms don't seem to entirely fit

b} treatments thus far ineffective {rec. feed & Sodium bicarb in water. He did not recommend prednisone and honestly I'm GLAD; if given for the wrong condition? Can cause WORSE issues: interfere with bone strength; create immunity issues; I've been on it for my back (as a young chef, 24 y/o) and I developed some REAL side effects; many long term; I've had several rescue animals and past pets on it: Now? I WILL use it for animals, but ONLY as an emergent, last-chance, or hospice treatment or very senior animal treatment; otherwise I look for other choices, and have been adamant: I honestly think I was right each time when I insisted otherwise. AND? While I'm VERY ANXIOUS to address her pain, I also know prednisone can mask any number of pain-due-to-do inflammation and joint related issues as well as other conditions, including autoimmune; so in a big way? Prednisone would DELAY getting to the bottom of the real issue if NOT gout, and that, I believe ESPECIALLY in a very young animal? Is NOT in her best interest; indeed is contraindicated.I think being a medical detective? IS in her best interests, long term.

c}other conditions ALSO fit the 'constellation of symptoms' i.e. criteria including:

I: Straight up injury

II: Injury COMBINED with 'curly toe' or other condition precipitated by and/or aggravated by nutrient def.


BUT?

Now? I'm on a mission:


Her toes/claw is NEWLY WORSE again: last few hours.

I'm amazed at how quickly this seems to occur; her going from OK to bad.


I have photos, too, to 'prove' I'm not insane on this last count; almost each and every time.


I even? Have thought of: euthanasia... BUT I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO GO THERE.


Right now?

She IS In pain. But? NOT SUICIDAL. I think I can tell... honestly. I think she knows I'm on her side and trying to figure this out and that there's hope. If you've dealt with {and my guess is? YOU HAVE} humans OR animals in pain? We, who love them? Can tell when the lose their will or spirit. She has not lost this. She wants to live: she wants to get better, too.


But? I'm DESPERATE to help her.

I know what it's like to be in terrible pain, and I was for well over a year; twice. About 4-5 years in toto; of unendurable pain pre/post my two and only surgeries ever: back surgeries. The second time? I was only 29 and newly engaged but? I literally knew, just knew? If this second back surgery didn't work? I didn't want to live. I DO get it.


It's been ten years, but the first few were rough; now? I'm perfect. I can dance in high heels and run over a mile and do any exercise and get into positions like you wouldn't believe and garden and lift {I try not to do 50 because I have little vertebrae left in one area, but 30 even? NO Problem} and walk gracefully and haven't limped for years; not even {o gosh... don't want to jinx it} an episode of pain in several years. So? I KNOW these things can take time; way too much time. But in the long haul? WORTH IT. And I know, too, from my story AND animals I've loved?

Doctors don't always get it right. {Vets included}. Frack, since I'm telling you my life story? My ex was a doc, and so were many in our social circle: I KNOW there's a reason why they call it the medical arts and this is precisely why. Practicing medicine is as much art as Science: not everyone gets it right, no matter how great they are or what they know. Sometimes? It takes years to get a proper diagnosis and treatment; if ever. Sadie, I believe, doesn't have that long. {I ran away from this life; I can not turn to this erstwhile circle for help any longer, just so you know why I haven't tried. Distances of several sort separate us, now; including safety}.


The best advocate for any patient? Themselves or someone who loves them and refuses to give up.

I had my mother and myself.

Sadie has me.


I will go to the ends of the Earth for her.


I have helped other with their animals; I've gone to heaven and back for ones I knew were sincere; but either naive or unable to know or do everything for themselves; even friends I've just met online. I think some humans are like this: we have the inclination to help those willing to help themselves and their critters; sometimes? Just knowing how committed one is means the difference in finding people willing to guide and help and go to bat for you. Some people I help a little; I try; I give info; but I can tell when they're not really committed. Those that are and want my help? I gladly take under my wing; more: I've made friends who seem like family to me online; at least while they're in the business of trying to help animals.

I have my areas of 'expertise' and experience: sadly, this is not one of them.

I've learned a TON in the few weeks I've had Sadie, but honestly?

I KNOW I need help.

Chicken biology is unlike anything I've ever, ever dealt with. I can't even put my nutrition background to work for Sadie, because I'm so insecure that I do not have a handle on how her enzymes differ from those of most mammals; tho yes; surely, not being a complete dolt in the nutrition department helps.

Ex: even here, on BYC, as I'm beginning to delve deeply into vitamin deficiencies as being at root of her issues? There's a thread which identifies B12 as Riboflavin, which it's not. It's cobalamin.

That's a crucial distinction.

So yes; I can work for her, but I KNOW I don't know enough to feel like I can 'Science the heck out of her core issue/s': and that is a skill that has served me and those animals I7ve cared for and loved well, in the past; I believe I've even helped save a few lives.

I WANT to be that person for Sadie, and reading textbooks and {peer reviewed} studies at a clip you wouldn't believe; but? I'm not there yet; I don't know if I'll ever be.

Birds are NOT mammals; chickens are uniquer still, and, sadly? Are less studied, at least in situ. Most studies are undertaken by the 'factory farming' contingent or the USDA, and in many of these cases, diagnostics are conducted post mortem as a matter of course: I may glean some info, but let's be real: Telling me what's wrong with my beloved after she's dead? NOT HELPFUL.

The whole point is NOT letting her BE dead. Or even hurting, one iota.


So? This is all terra incognita for me.


I need an advocate; someone who knows their chicknsh*t, so to speak ;p, to act as a guide and advisor.


I WOULD love those vets' names if you have time. I'd absolutely be willing to travel if I felt I was seeing an expert, and one who cared. I traveled you don't want to know where for my dog several years ago; and I'm glad I did; I wouldn't have had it any other way. This surgeon turned out to literally be one of the best in the country; and not only that? But one of the leasing ethical researchers; author of many published papers and a chief consultant for the pharmaceutical industry. For someone who can really HELP? I'd travel the Earth, as I said.


Too? I KNOW that In-person consults are the gold standard and necessary, but something tells me that if it were a far trip? For things like labs? I'm sure my vet would be willing to send her/him samples and/or labs and/or records: anything that can be done remotely.


Meanwhile?

I've started Sadie on Nutritional Yeast for B vitamins; I spoke to my pharmacist today, he says that he CANNOT special order from any reputable manufacturers vitamin drops: I'd asked for: Riboflavin, Cobalamin, Thiamine {there are a few forms of BI; we looked for thiamine mononitrate and the phosphorylated forms: thiamin monophosphate (TMP), thiamin triphosphate (TTP), and thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP), which is also known as thiamine diphosphate; NONE, which surprised me, because this is often prescribed to humans; Niacin (B3)

I've STOPPED offering baking soda in water; there's too much conflicting info on this, and? She really wasn't drinking it anyway. I offered it in addition to plain water.


She likes? The CAT'S water, best. NO idea what's behind this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some bacteria/microbiome issue at root.


Therefore, I DID offer chicken probiotics in water, but? There's only ONE in the packet I bought from the only feed store in town; B. subtilis. And she DOES often forage; I'd think probiotics or microbiome was not at root; but I'm going to investigate this more.


I've started giving spring water only; I have concerns about some water issues including, possibly, excess iron and/or cyanobacteria. I WAS doing this MOST of the time, but now; all of the time.

I'm looking into splint materials/forms and pain relief.

I have a meeting with my boss and friend, Dave Sellers, at 7:15. Please, if you're even in the Mad River Valley, I'd love to show you the Madsonian Museum, anytime. I'm part of the 'team'; tonight's meeting is about this; I'm meeting the new head doscent; she may move into a paid position but this is a tiny museum. I'd be THRILLED to offer you or you & your family/guests a private tour, any day of the week. http://www.madsonian.org/. Or an architecture tour....


I've got to go make the chicken scratch; but I'll check in, hopefully, tonight.


Thank you again;


Of everyone I've met during my brief journey with Sadie so far? You've given me the most hope; and frankly, the most solid help and advice.


I'm very, very grateful; you have no idea.


My very best, and Sadie sade's, too,


~RA


PS:


She has gorgeous feathers and comb: signs of good health; but? She seems cold to me, sometimes. Is this normal? I thought: NO.


Obviously, I address it; thought it worth mentioning lest it be a 'signpost' of an ailment or deficiency, etc...

It's possible I'm just nuts. I swear I sense a transient tremble, at times.

 

[deacons]

Not sure where you are in VT, but in the Monadnock region of southwest NH (a straight shot down I-91 to exit 2/Keene) you could try Dr. Robert DeSena at Marlborough Vet Clinic. He is an avian/exotics specialist and sees lots of chickens since there's a lot of backyard flock keepers here in my region.
http://www.marlboroughveterinaryclinic.com

 

[Pyxis]

For pain you can dissolve five 5 grain aspirin in a gallon of water. This is safe for them. Offer it free choice along with regular water so Sadie can drink what she wants. I've done this lots of times.

It sounds like he (I'm going to go with he because of the crowing, if you can post a picture we can confirm ) may have uncorrected curled toes from when he was a chick. This can be fixed when they are couple days old before the bones harden but after that it's too late. It doesn't hurt them but their toes will look wonky for life. Is there any paralysis or is it just the toes curling over? If you can get a picture up it will help a lot in determining what's going on. Have you had any x rays done to see what's going on in there?

A nutritional deficiency may cause it but if you're not seeing improvement after giving the Nutri Drench for about two weeks I'd rule that out. Honestly I think you may be overthinking this part a bit. I'd really just grab the Nutri Drench and not worry about trying to get your hands on everything individually. I've successfully used it to treat wry neck, which is a serious nutritional defeciency that causes spinning in circles, the neck being stuck bent back, etc. Much more serious than what you're dealing with. It'll get things fixed for you if it's a nutritional problem.

Also, for your yeast, buy Brewer's Yeast. It's what you're wanting and we use it all the time to treat ducklings with niacin deficiency. You don't need to buy anything fancier if you are.

The vets I can recommend are Dr. Scott at Poultney Veterinary Services - he is a certified Avian Veterinarian and does see poultry. There is also a vet in Rutland that sees a lot of poultry and helped me free of charge with a chick with slipped tendon. I have his cell number. I've never actually taken a bird to see him (he helped me only over the phone) but he was very knowledgeable. PM me if you would like his info.