When is Black not Black Genetically? And are the All the Same?

[RememberTheWay]

Okay- so I am learning and looking for suitable birds for a project I'm undertaking and plan to breed to the best of my abilities.

Online- in numerous places - It is suggested if breeding Ermine Ameraucanas, for you to breed in really good blacks. Some of the advice says ONLY use blacks from long lines of black only birds. Some say NEVER use blacks from a BBS line. Or don't use splits from self blue, chocolate, etc.

What I'm wondering is when it comes to BBS- the way I understand it, blue is either there or it isn't. I didn't think blue could be carried recessively. Am I wrong on this?

I do know that self blue and blue are issues that pop up in some of these lines from time to time. I've even seen a chocolate pop up recently. What I wonder if if the blue that is popping up is from a wrongly identified bird being breed or maybe several? As in the bird is actually dark blue, not black?

But if that is not the case- and in some of these lines I seriously doubt that those long time breeders would make such a mistake - but how is this explained if some breeds black x dominant white and gets blue, or breeds Ermine to Ermine and gets blue or Ermine to Black, or any of the other combos.

Is there any merit to this advice? I am looking all over for show quality lines of true Ameraucana's in black and am having a hard time finding anyone local. I have found some splits (white/self blue are both possible with that line) and some REALLY SPECTACULAR BBS lines.

Lastly, is this a known issue to happen even in long lines of blacks? Meaning if blues or other colors are known to pop up in lines either way in the end does it really matter which black I choose anyways? If that makes sense.

Photos for attention and Fun -

 

[wrathsfarm]

Okay- so I am learning and looking for suitable birds for a project I'm undertaking and plan to breed to the best of my abilities.

Online- in numerous places - It is suggested if breeding Ermine Ameraucanas, for you to breed in really good blacks. Some of the advice says ONLY use blacks from long lines of black only birds. Some say NEVER use blacks from a BBS line. Or don't use splits from self blue, chocolate, etc.

What I'm wondering is when it comes to BBS- the way I understand it, blue is either there or it isn't. I didn't think blue could be carried recessively. Am I wrong on this?

I do know that self blue and blue are issues that pop up in some of these lines from time to time. I've even seen a chocolate pop up recently. What I wonder if if the blue that is popping up is from a wrongly identified bird being breed or maybe several? As in the bird is actually dark blue, not black?

But if that is not the case- and in some of these lines I seriously doubt that those long time breeders would make such a mistake - but how is this explained if some breeds black x dominant white and gets blue, or breeds Ermine to Ermine and gets blue or Ermine to Black, or any of the other combos.

Is there any merit to this advice? I am looking all over for show quality lines of true Ameraucana's in black and am having a hard time finding anyone local. I have found some splits (white/self blue are both possible with that line) and some REALLY SPECTACULAR BBS lines.

Lastly, is this a known issue to happen even in long lines of blacks? Meaning if blues or other colors are known to pop up in lines either way in the end does it really matter which black I choose anyways? If that makes sense.

Photos for attention and Fun -

Very interesting thread, I'm just following along but I'll tag a few experts here.
@NatJ
@MysteryChicken
@SilverBirds
@BlueTheBrahma

 

[Amer]

Black is always black. You can use black from BBS lines.
If you breed dominant white to black and get blue, that means the blue was being masked by the dominant white.

 

[Amer]

However, not all blacks are created equal. The more melanizers, the more spots.
Shiny deep blacks and blacks that come from heavily laced bbs breeding are probably best.

 

[Amer]

This can happen

popping up is from a wrongly identified bird being breed or maybe several? As in the bird is actually dark blue, not black?

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

BBS is simple(ish). There are two alleles (versions of a gene). Bl and bl. bl/bl is black, Bl/bl is blue and Bl/Bl is splash. If a bird is white, the white replaces any BBS, so you don’t know which one your are breeding in if you breed whites to non whites.
Black is not black of it is blue, splash, self-blue (lavender), chocolate or white. There are a few rarer ones but they are the main ones.
I believe the whole point of breeding black into ermine (silver Columbian) is that the best blacks are bred for the deepest black with the greenest sheen. These blacks pass this good black into the ermine, once you breed out the extended black (full black coloured body). A weaker black, as often caused by the dilution from splash and blue related genes, is more easily washed out by the silver, so the ermine is less defined and lower quality.
These differences in black are from many types of genes called melenisers, but are not as understood or distinct as BBS, white, etc.

 

[NatJ]

Very interesting thread, I'm just following along but I'll tag a few experts here.
@NatJ
@MysteryChicken
@SilverBirds
@BlueTheBrahma

Most of what I can think of, has already been said by other people.

Online- in numerous places - It is suggested if breeding Ermine Ameraucanas, for you to breed in really good blacks. Some of the advice says ONLY use blacks from long lines of black only birds. Some say NEVER use blacks from a BBS line. Or don't use splits from self blue, chocolate, etc.

I can see a reason to avoid the splits: if they carry lavender (self blue) or chocolate, you might have those colors pop up later. Breeding out recessive genes can be quite a bother, so it's easier to just avoid them in the first place.

Note, chocolate is sex-linked, so a hen either is chocolate or is not. She cannot show black and carry chocolate. So it should be safe enough to use a non-chocolate hen from chocolate lines.

Some "chocolate" chickens have the dun/khaki gene, which is incompletely dominant (like blue is.) It is not sex-linked, but it isn't going to hide in a black chicken either, so black chickens of either sex are going to be fine there.

What I'm wondering is when it comes to BBS- the way I understand it, blue is either there or it isn't. I didn't think blue could be carried recessively. Am I wrong on this?

That matches my understanding.

Other than dark blues being mistaken for black, I wonder about this:
Some blues have very clear lacing (black edges on the blue feathers.) Andalusians seem to be a good example of this. Blacks from such a line might have whatever genes make it possible for the blues to have such nice lacing. I cannot say whether that is good or bad when breeding Ermines,

 

[Amer]

Most of what I can think of, has already been said by other people.


I can see a reason to avoid the splits: if they carry lavender (self blue) or chocolate, you might have those colors pop up later. Breeding out recessive genes can be quite a bother, so it's easier to just avoid them in the first place.

Note, chocolate is sex-linked, so a hen either is chocolate or is not. She cannot show black and carry chocolate. So it should be safe enough to use a non-chocolate hen from chocolate lines.

Some "chocolate" chickens have the dun/khaki gene, which is incompletely dominant (like blue is.) It is not sex-linked, but it isn't going to hide in a black chicken either, so black chickens of either sex are going to be fine there.


That matches my understanding.

Other than dark blues being mistaken for black, I wonder about this:
Some blues have very clear lacing (black edges on the blue feathers.) Andalusians seem to be a good example of this. Blacks from such a line might have whatever genes make it possible for the blues to have such nice lacing. I cannot say whether that is good or bad when breeding Ermines,

I agree. I would think it would be a good thing, but perhaps not.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Super dark blues can easily be mistaken for blacks. I had a male I thought was black for years until I noticed he was fathering splashes as well as blues, and that he had super dark blue down

 

[RememberTheWay]

Very interesting thread, I'm just following along but I'll tag a few experts here.
@NatJ
@MysteryChicken
@SilverBirds
@BlueTheBrahma

Thanks- I'm always down to discuss genetics and breeders experience and theories of why things are the way they are! Very fascinating topic, in my opinion at least! My family would probably rather poke their eyeballs out then listen to it though