Why do gamebirds need higher protein?

[nuthatched]

It’s also in the veterinary manual, yes the study I read is broilers, and yes on fertility. What makes a traditional rooster in a backyard flock any different? Except - a broiler would need faster growth. So maybe the veterinary manual is closer with the lower protein?

A traditional rooster hadn't been bred to beef out and live short lives. That's the difference. As I said, they don't often go past 6 months.

A broiler is made to put on weight rapidly, weight affects their long term health and their ability to mate. To attempt to slow down the growth process, they are feed a low protein feed.
Veterinary manuals can only get research as it's done, and most, if not all studies are on the egg/meat industry with the goal of cheap, 'just enough' and quick, not better, thrive and naturally.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

It’s also in the veterinary manual, yes the study I read is broilers, and yes on fertility. What makes a traditional rooster in a backyard flock any different? Except - a broiler would need faster growth. So maybe the veterinary manual is closer with the lower protein?

What makes them different? The same difference between a chihuahua and a St. Bernard or a Jersey cow and an angus…breeding. I wouldn’t compare the nutrition needs of a quarter horse to a draft horse and I don’t compare the nutrition needs from broilers over to heritage or any other breeds. If you put a bulldog that gets fat fast on a diet for a high energy greyhound you are going to have a seriously obese bulldog. If you put the greyhound on a diet for a bulldog you will have a malnourish greyhound.

 

[The Good Grumble]

Understand that chicken have been some of the most micro-studied of all animals for nutrition. That is because they are such a large part of our food system and (when factory farmed) are 100% controlled. You can't even say that about cows that eat primarily grass, but also a lot of semi-random greens for the majority of their life. Only later in life are many cows grain fed to fatten them up for slaughter.

Now, think about exactly why they are studying chicken nutrition so closely. What are their goals? They want low cost and high volume production, both for eggs and meat. All of the chicken nutrition guidelines are based on these factory farming priorities.

What aren't they concerned about in these studies? Long-term health of the birds, humane growing practices and optimized nutrition from the resulting eggs/meat. Many backyard chicken owners put higher priority on these aspects of chicken raising.

Unfortunately, we don't have nearly as much info on ideal nutrition for these additional priorities, mostly just tons of anecdotal experience. Protein levels are simply the most visible nutrient that we try to optimize.

As others have mentioned, I also follow the all-flock + calcium feed method to try to improve nutrition beyond the factory farm minimums.

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Humans can can and do also survive on less-than ideal nutrition. They will just have stunted growth, intelligence/psychological issues, poor health, reproductive problems and/or shorter lifespan. The US RDAs (recommended daily allowance) are exactly the same as the chicken nutrient recommendations: minimum, not optimal.

One concrete example: the US RDA is 150 micrograms of iodine/day. Why that level? Too many American men were rejected from military service in WW1 due to goiter (inflamation of the thyroid) from low iodine. They established the 150 microgram minimum to prevent goiter, not optimize health. Iodine is used in every cell of the human body and we would die without it.

Lower (RDA approved) iodine levels are heavily tied to thyroid insufficiency, breast cancer and many other health problems. I take 5,000 micrograms of iodine/day (33x the US RDA) due to all I've read on the subject. It is definitely possible to consume some nutrients to the point of toxicity, but excess iodine just gets peed out.

I wish we had better info for optimizing nutrition, but optimal health doesn't drive profits, so that isn't what's studied- for chickens or humans.

Please cite some of your thesis here about intention.
The studies I have read have been a low ratio of hens to roosters, longevity was pronounced along with high fertility rates. That makes sense right? Rearing an an animal up to sexual maturity takes time. Also takes good breeding selection and money. If farmers are faced with higher mortality they are spinning their wheels with having to need a constant resource to replace animals. Thus money, and consequently losses in production. The end goal being a healthy breeding stock that lasts. I can tell you that’s my goal.

Additionally there are some amazing folks in poultry nutrition I’ve been communicating with over the last week.

Stay tuned because the research IS there, and more is coming out.

 

[The Good Grumble]

What makes them different? The same difference between a chihuahua and a St. Bernard or a Jersey cow and an angus…breeding. I wouldn’t compare the nutrition needs of a quarter horse to a draft horse and I don’t compare the nutrition needs from broilers over to heritage or any other breeds. If you put a bulldog that gets fat fast on a diet for a high energy greyhound you are going to have a seriously obese bulldog. If you put the greyhound on a diet for a bulldog you will have a malnourish greyhound.

Do you have any studies or citations for your opinion? I don’t mean that to be disparaging. I’ve been reading a lot and I’m open to finding alternative information on the protein requirements for a rooster. Thus far in veterinary manuals and studies I have not seen anything pop up. I’m working on formulating feed currently which is why all my questions to the community. I know someone here will have some data I haven’t dug up yet!

 

[nuthatched]

Wouldn’t that make sense that they would need slightly higher protein under those conditions? Vs our backyard males we *don’t need to grow at a faster rate, and we *do want optimal fertility for breeding programs.

Nope, unfortunately, industry standards want it cheap as possible.
So instead of increasing budget to feed better protein and allow natural growth time, they make Frankenburds that grow and produce unnatural amounts of meat and eggs in a short span of time to meet demand.
They're designed to bulk out and produce, the 14% and 16% quoted proteins are the lowest percentage they could feed and the birds produce as needed and live, any lower, the birds health fails.
The goals and needs of industry growers and backyard growers, and their birds are as different as night and day.

 

[MysteryChicken]

I am unaware of research that says roosters need less protein. Many feed an all flock feed or grower feed for higher protein and less calcium to their chickens. Oyster shells or another calcium source are fed on the side for laying hens.

X2. Roosters, & hens actually benefit better on high protein feed between 20%-22%.

 

[TooCheep]

Please cite some of your thesis here about intention.
The studies I have read have been a low ratio of hens to roosters, longevity was pronounced along with high fertility rates. That makes sense right? Rearing an an animal up to sexual maturity takes time. Also takes good breeding selection and money. If farmers are faced with higher mortality they are spinning their wheels with having to need a constant resource to replace animals. Thus money, and consequently losses in production. The end goal being a healthy breeding stock that lasts. I can tell you that’s my goal.

Additionally there are some amazing folks in poultry nutrition I’ve been communicating with over the last week.

Stay tuned because the research IS there, and more is coming out.

What intention(s)?

I call BS on your claim of longevity being a priority in chicken studies. Pretty much no commercial chicken operations (the ones who finance these studies), care about longevity. Meat birds (primarily cornish-cross) are only raised for 8 weeks before being harvested. Layers are generally kept for about 2 years when their egg production starts declining and and then culled. Chickens can commonly live for 7+ years when properly cared for. Yes, they want high fertility (egg-laying) ability. I mentioned that.

Also, it is hard to respect demands for citations from one who does not provide the same for their claims.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

Do you have any studies or citations for your opinion? I don’t mean that to be disparaging. I’ve been reading a lot and I’m open to finding alternative information on the protein requirements for a rooster. Thus far in veterinary manuals and studies I have not seen anything pop up. I’m working on formulating feed currently which is why all my questions to the community. I know someone here will have some data I haven’t dug up yet!

The problem with poultry studies is that studies as a whole (both human and animal) are funded and conducted by those who benefit from them. Now I am not shooting from the hip with that one that information comes from a family member who has multiple degrees in medical research along with writing for science and medical journals. The majority of the studies you find on chickens are all done on broilers or production hens because they are paid for by the meat or egg industry. The poultry industry does not need studies on heritage breeds because they don’t use them and studies are extremely expensive. It’s common knowledge across the board that broilers are bred differently. You don’t need a study to tell you that a pug is bred differently than a German shepherd and requires a different diet. A chicken isn’t just a chicken there are different breeds with different genetic makeups and to assume they are all the same would be the equivalent to saying all cow breeds are the same, all dog breeds are the same, all cat breeds are the same, all horse breeds, all sheep are the same, all goats are the same etc.

 

[The Good Grumble]

Nope, unfortunately, industry standards want it cheap as possible.
So instead of increasing budget to feed better protein and allow natural growth time, they make Frankenburds that grow and produce unnatural amounts of meat and eggs in a short span of time to meet demand.
They're designed to bulk out and produce, the 14% and 16% quoted proteins are the lowest percentage they could feed and the birds produce as needed and live, any lower, the birds health fails.
The goals and needs of industry growers and backyard growers, and their birds are as different as night and day.

Do you have a source for this? Or is this opinion based. I’m really trying to look at this scientifically with research. That would be super helpful!

 

[The Good Grumble]

What intention(s)?

I call BS on your claim of longevity being a priority in chicken studies. Pretty much no commercial chicken operations (the ones who finance these studies), care about longevity. Meat birds (primarily cornish-cross) are only raised for 8 weeks before being harvested. Layers are generally kept for about 2 years when their egg production starts declining and and then culled. Chickens can commonly live for 7+ years when properly cared for. Yes, they want high fertility (egg-laying) ability. I mentioned that.

Also, it is hard to respect demands for citations from one who does not provide the same for their claims.

I cited my sources in an earlier post.