Would Orpington Breeders Weigh In, Please?

[Pickled Plaid]

Adding a link to this thread for info on two apps for record keeping if I ever get an iPhone

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/record-keeping.1292785/#post-21003782

 

[ColtHandorf]

American Orpingtons follow the APA standard, this is how the Orpington breed originally was meant to look like.

I don't know if I completely agree with this statement, only because Orpingtons were developed in the UK and thus I am partial to their Standard, believing it more accurately reflects the bird that the creator envisioned. That being said, English anything are typically larger than their American counterparts, just look at English Budgies or Zebra finches compared to American Zebra finches or parakeets.

Are all three varieties considered "dual purpose"?

Technically, yes, all three varieties would be considered dual-purpose, although the Utility Orpingtons are probably much better egg layers and not as productive when it comes to meat birds.

And would the American type be considered "heritage" since it's closer to original type?

Show-quality birds that adhere to the APA's SOP would be considered "Heritage" not because they are closer to the original type, but because they aren't "utility" or "production" lines.

I am currently working with Silver-laced, Blue/Black/Splash, Lavender, Chocolate, and Recessive-white. This is my first year with them but I am enjoying them and the challenges they present so far.

 

[Gray Farms]

Thank you so much!

About the smutty tail, or I've seen it called peppered tail also, while it is a fault in the show pen, is it a trait that actually maintains depth of gold color in breeding (which I've also read)? Does it depend on whether the smudges or pepper are tonally Buff or Black when deciding to cull? Or are both completely undesirable for any reason?

Regarding breeding age, once all breeder birds are fully mature, the arrangements in breeding pens can be adjusted with only expected social consequences? Also, are there any guidelines for age groups of bachelors? Are adult or nealy adult roosters tolerant of cockerels?

Do nutrition requirements change for roosters once they're in the breeding pen? I ask this primarily because I've noticed that soy bean and peas are common ingredients in chicken feed, that are high in protein, but also high in phytoestrogens. I'm curious whether fertility could potentially be impacted by diet choices?

Its the black smuttiness "peppering" I cull for.

Yes your correct on breeder group ages. Once fully mature only small squabbles over pecking order should arise. Bachelor groups I've never had much trouble with as long as they are similar in size. My older males don't seem to mind younger ones if there aren't females with them.

All my birds over 6 months old get a 22% protein game bird grower/finisher. I high advise you do not feed a layer feed. The excess calcium is detrimental to males.

 

[Pickled Plaid]

Its the black smuttiness "peppering" I cull for.

Yes your correct on breeder group ages. Once fully mature only small squabbles over pecking order should arise. Bachelor groups I've never had much trouble with as long as they are similar in size. My older males don't seem to mind younger ones if there aren't females with them.

All my birds over 6 months old get a 22% protein game bird grower/finisher. I high advise you do not feed a layer feed. The excess calcium is detrimental to males.

Awesome! Good stuff to know! I think while I'm planning things, I'd like to put some thought and effort into the bachelors' quarters to make sure they have plenty of space to run around and be teenagers, lol. Also to lay out the bird yard like summer camp; girls on one side, boys on the other.

Regarding feed, I've read a few notes on BYC from breeders feeding >20% game bird or turkey feed to their breeders. I like it! Do you supplement anything other than grit/oyster shell to the birds on the gamebird diet? For chicks and grow outs, do you just give regular starter/grower? Or do you look for higher protein formulations?

 

[Pickled Plaid]

I don't know if I completely agree with this statement, only because Orpingtons were developed in the UK and thus I am partial to their Standard, believing it more accurately reflects the bird that the creator envisioned. That being said, English anything are typically larger than their American counterparts, just look at English Budgies or Zebra finches compared to American Zebra finches or parakeets.



Technically, yes, all three varieties would be considered dual-purpose, although the Utility Orpingtons are probably much better egg layers and not as productive when it comes to meat birds.



Show-quality birds that adhere to the APA's SOP would be considered "Heritage" not because they are closer to the original type, but because they aren't "utility" or "production" lines.

I am currently working with Silver-laced, Blue/Black/Splash, Lavender, Chocolate, and Recessive-white. This is my first year with them but I am enjoying them and the challenges they present so far.

I spent my entire childhood with horses. So I understand that (as an example) all Quarter Horses are not the same. The grade type are like the production/utility/hatchery type of Orpington. The leggy Appendix QH's are like the American type Orp. The big boned, wide Foundation bred QH's are like the English Orps. I hope I never lose my eye for equine conformation - but wow do I have a metric ton to learn about SOP poultry! I haunt the "What Breed/Gender?" threads trying to pick up on different breed characteristics. I also found what will (hopefully!) be a pretty big poultry show not too far from me the beginning of November. I'm really excited about seeing so many birds in one place!

 

[Gray Farms]

Awesome! Good stuff to know! I think while I'm planning things, I'd like to put some thought and effort into the bachelors' quarters to make sure they have plenty of space to run around and be teenagers, lol. Also to lay out the bird yard like summer camp; girls on one side, boys on the other.

Regarding feed, I've read a few notes on BYC from breeders feeding >20% game bird or turkey feed to their breeders. I like it! Do you supplement anything other than grit/oyster shell to the birds on the gamebird diet? For chicks and grow outs, do you just give regular starter/grower? Or do you look for higher protein formulations?

I don't supplement my breeders with anything, regularly anyhow. They get some sunflower seeds now and then and fresh greens. I do throw a handful of grit in now and then. But I do not give oyster shell. I had trouble years ago with chicks pipping and tiring out and dying before the could get hatched. I narrowed it down to the egg shells being to thick. Ever since I've not given any oyster shell. The feed seems to have enough calcium to support the hens needs. And the chick hatch out much better.

If your going to pen you boys next to the girls I'd put up a visual barrier. Plywood, canvas tarp, or steel sheeting. If they can see the girls "especially just on the other side of the fence" they'll likely still want to fight over them.

 

[Pickled Plaid]

I don't supplement my breeders with anything, regularly anyhow. They get some sunflower seeds now and then and fresh greens. I do throw a handful of grit in now and then. But I do not give oyster shell. I had trouble years ago with chicks pipping and tiring out and dying before the could get hatched. I narrowed it down to the egg shells being to thick. Ever since I've not given any oyster shell. The feed seems to have enough calcium to support the hens needs. And the chick hatch out much better.

If your going to pen you boys next to the girls I'd put up a visual barrier. Plywood, canvas tarp, or steel sheeting. If they can see the girls "especially just on the other side of the fence" they'll likely still want to fight over them.

I hadn't considered the potential down side to strong egg shells - thank you! I'm trying to get my supplies assembled to begin hatching this next spring (though not with high dollar eggs initially...hopefully my Muscovy flock will supply some fertile eggs for me to work out the particulars of my incubator before I venture into shipped eggs). Do you supplement oyster shell to your hens during the off season, to rebuild their bone density and calcium stores? I want to focus on large fowl Orps, so I do have concerns about long term bone density - especially for what I plan to be a very small number of foundation birds.

For the pens, I definitely planned on visual barriers between each pen, but what I didn't explain very accurately was that I would ultimately like to have a physically separate bachelor's pad enclosure for the boys. Possibly with composting runs, and/or interchangeable access to garden areas so they can stay busy doing Chicken Things (a lifetime of observation of animals has proven that keeping them busy, and offering outlets for natural behaviors goes a long way to mitigating frustration and stress. For overall health and fertility of the boys, I'd like to keep them as happy as possible). I haven't worked out exactly how I'd like to include single apartments in the Boys' enclosure if I have need for them.

 

[Gray Farms]

I don't give the hens oyster shell during the non-hatching season either. I don't see any negative signs that would incline me to give it to them. As far as long term I don't keep any that are over 4 years old. So longer than that I'm not sure if not supplementing them has had any effect on them.

With your pens I highly recommend building pens that the males can see and interact with each other but not cause damage to each other. My breeder pens are 6 feet tall with 1/2 hardware cloth the first two feet then 2 inch chicken wire/poultry netting the other four feet. This way the can see each other well but can't get a hold of each other. I'm a firm believer that roosters need to have "perceived" competition to ensure they regularly breed and produce good fertility. Also speaking of pens you'll want to keep your roosts low. English Orps are particularly prone to bumble foot from jumping down from roosts that are to high. Personally my pens have one bar at 12 inches then another at 24 inches. Deep bedding will help as well.

 

[Pickled Plaid]

I don't give the hens oyster shell during the non-hatching season either. I don't see any negative signs that would incline me to give it to them. As far as long term I don't keep any that are over 4 years old. So longer than that I'm not sure if not supplementing them has had any effect on them.

With your pens I highly recommend building pens that the males can see and interact with each other but not cause damage to each other. My breeder pens are 6 feet tall with 1/2 hardware cloth the first two feet then 2 inch chicken wire/poultry netting the other four feet. This way the can see each other well but can't get a hold of each other. I'm a firm believer that roosters need to have "perceived" competition to ensure they regularly breed and produce good fertility. Also speaking of pens you'll want to keep your roosts low. English Orps are particularly prone to bumble foot from jumping down from roosts that are to high. Personally my pens have one bar at 12 inches then another at 24 inches. Deep bedding will help as well.

I was aware of the need for low roosts, but had not considered the possibility of "perceived competition" or it's effect on fertility. Hmmmm. I'll need to ponder on that. Does this approach in housing increase aggression towards humans in any way (redirected aggression?). I've got a one year old son who loves the birds - I can't/won't keep aggressive cocks for that reason (which I openly admit is going to further complicate breeding efforts). So I may need to continue to research layouts and building plans to find something that will work for me and the birds. There's no one correct answer out there, I just want to plan as best I can to improve my odds of success.

The juvenile males pre-crowing age could theoretically be housed communally, though (with the given exception that there's always at least one who can't get along with anybody)?

 

[PlainOrpingtons2018]

@ColtHandorf , what I mean by that is the American standard is much closer to how William Cook intended for the breed to look, leggy birds, but not as leggy as utility(hatchery) birds.

if you look for photos of the Orpingtons that were shown by Mr. Cook it’s very noticeable that the American orps are much more similar to the original birds than the Uk(English) orpingtons are.

The Orpingtons that follow the uk standard now look like clean legged cochins, so fluffy you can’t see their legs. That’s not how Cook originally bred them to look like, that’s all I meant