Would this modified WelBar recipe work?

[lyndon]

 

[donrae]

 

[draye]

x2

 

[dheltzel]

I see a few things I don't like about this plan:
1) the F2 (final) says welbar, but these are still 50% barred rock, the original formula would have them 75% welsummer
2) you will need to hatch at least twice as many of the F2's because both parents are black, so only 25% will be non-black.
3) of those, 50% will be non-barred, so you will cull those too.
3) the final "welbar" males will not all be double barred, and they must be to be true welbars, so half of those barred ones are culls. In the end, you will be culling about 94% of the males to get your welbar roo.

Better plan to hatch a few hundred of that last generation.

 

[dretd]

You are talking only about barring. The Welbar is autosexing because it is barred on a wild type down, e+ (chipmunk looking chicks) whereas the Barred Rock is extended black base E (black down with possibly with some white underside). You will need to cull for both barring and for wild type down. The process is similar in some other autosesing breeds like the Cream Legbar.

I am not a genetics expert by any means, so I am not sure how to keep track of both the barring and the wild type and I am not sure what an E/e+ down would look like. I am guessing that because the black is dominant that the wild type down will be concealed pretty well and you may not be able to determine whether the chicks carry e+ in that F1 generation. Hopefully a more experienced breeder will be able to help you out.

eta: I just took a closer look at your plan. You have the BR males as B/- on the right pathway and they should be B/B and the Welsummer hens are b/- and you have them as b/b. So infact all of your F1 generation from this cross will have one copy of the barring gene and be B/b (male) and B/- (female)

 

[lyndon]

I suppose I have much to learn, but the only way to learn is to ask.

 

[dheltzel]

The best way to learn is to ask questions, then more if you don't understand the answers. That's what I did. Your revised chart shows you were thinking about the barring and the extended black correctly. What you described works, but doesn't save a generation as you had hoped.

An easy way to get a welbar line would be to purchase a welbar cockeral and breed it to welsummer hens. If the cockerel is double barred, every hen will be a pure (and likely improved) welbar. Cull the cockerels, or breed back to a sister to get another double barred cockerel, culling all the single barred cockerels and unbarred hens.

The problem is where to get that first welbar cockerel. I wish they were a common as Rhodebars, I have 2 perfectly barred RB cockerel chicks I would gladly give to a good home.

 

[donrae]

I suppose I have much to learn, but the only way to learn is to ask.

And I love everyone that asks questions like this, because I learn from the answers. I had a nagging feeling about the wildtype down but couldn't think of the correct words to express it, and also didn't think of the single barred males......we all have much to learn!

 

[dretd]

I suppose I have much to learn, but the only way to learn is to ask.

I love looking at genetics and have tried very hard to learn from others. I hope that you didn't think that I was scolding you! I just caught some errors and was trying to help you think it through!

If you are interested in learning more about chicken genetics, there are a couple of sources you may find helpful.

You can start by going to the 'chicken calculator' http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html It has an explanation for most of the genetics symbols for chickens can be fun to play with. It is only somewhat accurate since it is not good at keeping track of underlying colors hidden in chickens most especially I have found it ignores 'autosomal red'--the red you will see leak through the background color on many mixed breed roosters.

Another good source found helpful for basics was: http://www.hpbaa.com/Genetics.html

and last one with pictures (I love pictures): http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_eumeldiluters

 

[lyndon]

I am a computer programmer. Have been for almost 30 years. I had to clarify that I am not totally incompetent, before I say that the Chicken Calculator left me dumbfounded. I've bought 2 books on chicken genetics, but obviously it just hasn't clicked for me.

This is frustrating, because I really want to understand this.