Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[LaurenRitz]

I didn't get sick birds. I got lots of injuries and those that could be saved I treated.

Working with the birds you had, I'm sure most of those susceptible to disease had been weeded out before you got them.

 

[fluffycrow]

The birds and nature tend to know what works best and I let them get on with it.

That's how landraces were created, after all. How does one go about establishing a self-sustaining group (or multiple), if one's birds aren't willing to sit? Bring in new blood?

In one of your previous posts you mentioned that chickens haven't changed much psychologically from their jungle fowl ancestors, and I agree. In that case, it'd be safe to assume that since chickens still have an instinct to stay alive, still have an instinct to form social groups (which ties in with the instinct to survive), then they must also have the instinct to reproduce, beyond just simple copulation. If that's the case, then why is natural brooding becoming more and more rare?

 

[NatJ]

In one of your previous posts you mentioned that chickens haven't changed much psychologically from their jungle fowl ancestors, and I agree. In that case, it'd be safe to assume that since chickens still have an instinct to stay alive, still have an instinct to form social groups (which ties in with the instinct to survive), then they must also have the instinct to reproduce, beyond just simple copulation. If that's the case, then why is natural brooding becoming more and more rare?

People have put a lot of effort into breeding chickens that do not go broody. Very strong selection, for many generations, can make big changes (like lack of broodiness.)

And this selection has been going on for a long time, not just the most recent few decades. I have a book from about a century ago that talks about the Mediterranean chicken breeds being good layers but poor setters at that time. I have read of Egyptians using incubators more than 2000 years ago, although I can't tell how widespread that was and whether the knowledge died out for a while between then and now.

Other than that, the living conditions may make a difference as well. I don't know all the details that contribute, but some people seem to have lots of broody hens and some do not. I've read of chickens that go broody frequently while one person owns them, and not at all when a different person owns the very same hens (before or after). I can't say whether the difference is in the coop and living conditions, or something different about the feeding, or something else yet.

I've got a guess that hens will not go broody unless they store up a certain amount of body fat first, but I am pretty sure that is not the only factor.

I see quite a few discussions of broody hens on this forum, so I'm sure at least some chickens still have the right genes for it, along with whatever other conditions they need.

 

[tinychicky]

A little off topic, but with regard to Egyptian egg incubators, the clay "oven" style incubators heated by fire are still in use in some rural areas with a few modern upgrades! I was just reading about it the other day: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/egypt-egg-ovens

 

[Ridgerunner]

In one of your previous posts you mentioned that chickens haven't changed much psychologically from their jungle fowl ancestors, and I agree. In that case, it'd be safe to assume that since chickens still have an instinct to stay alive, still have an instinct to form social groups (which ties in with the instinct to survive), then they must also have the instinct to reproduce, beyond just simple copulation. If that's the case, then why is natural brooding becoming more and more rare?

NatJ brings up some interesting points. It is always more complicated than the most simplistic answers. But the simplistic answer is that if you make going broody a capital offense where they literally lose their head for going broody and use an incubator to hatch eggs in a few generations you have a flock where very few go broody. Conversely if you hatch eggs from hens that go broody and use those chicks as your breeders you can soon have a flock that regularly goes broody. I did that, including the rooster, and soon practically every hen went broody for me at least once a year. Several more often than that.

 

[fluffycrow]

People have put a lot of effort into breeding chickens that do not go broody. Very strong selection, for many generations, can make big changes (like lack of broodiness.)

And this selection has been going on for a long time, not just the most recent few decades. I have a book from about a century ago that talks about the Mediterranean chicken breeds being good layers but poor setters at that time. I have read of Egyptians using incubators more than 2000 years ago, although I can't tell how widespread that was and whether the knowledge died out for a while between then and now.

Other than that, the living conditions may make a difference as well. I don't know all the details that contribute, but some people seem to have lots of broody hens and some do not. I've read of chickens that go broody frequently while one person owns them, and not at all when a different person owns the very same hens (before or after). I can't say whether the difference is in the coop and living conditions, or something different about the feeding, or something else yet.

I've got a guess that hens will not go broody unless they store up a certain amount of body fat first, but I am pretty sure that is not the only factor.

I see quite a few discussions of broody hens on this forum, so I'm sure at least some chickens still have the right genes for it, along with whatever other conditions they need.

I'm not convinced human selection can make such drastic changes to such a primal instinct. Make it more difficult to present itself yes, but here we're talking about near complete eradication in some breeds amd production mixes. Since the brooding aspect is linked to other reproductive functions (such as copulation), wouldn't we have noticed some kind of difference there? Perhaps low fertility, or lack of reproductive drive in both males and females?

Your point about building a sufficient fat reserve is very interesting. I can only tell my experience, but the birds that have gone broody (this far, only two mix breed bantams) here were given feed that had higher protein than layer feed. My free range pen has layer feed included in their diet

 

[Ridgerunner]

Your point about building a sufficient fat reserve is very interesting. I can only tell my experience, but the birds that have gone broody (this far, only two mix breed bantams) here were given feed that had higher protein than layer feed. My free range pen has layer feed included in their diet

I suspect NatJ got that about the fat reserve from me. I mention it a lot. I can't remember where I first got that. I may have read it somewhere but I suspect it was from a Poultry Science professor that specialized in egg laying and reproduction.

I've butchered enough pullets, hens, cockerels, and roosters to see that it sure sounds right. The girls typically have a lot of fat, the boys on the same feeding regimen as the girls (chicken feed plus forage) have a lot less, almost none.

To further mess up thinking, I was feeding a 15% protein Developer chicken feed with forage, kitchen wastes, garden excess and waste, and orchard excess and waste when I had a flock where every hen went broody at least once a year and many more often. I have no idea what their average daily protein intake was but it could not have been very high.

 

[NatJ]

I suspect NatJ got that about the fat reserve from me. I mention it a lot. I can't remember where I first got that. I may have read it somewhere but I suspect it was from a Poultry Science professor that specialized in egg laying and reproduction.

I've butchered enough pullets, hens, cockerels, and roosters to see that it sure sounds right. The girls typically have a lot of fat, the boys on the same feeding regimen as the girls (chicken feed plus forage) have a lot less, almost none.

To further mess up thinking, I was feeding a 15% protein Developer chicken feed with forage, kitchen wastes, garden excess and waste, and orchard excess and waste when I had a flock where every hen went broody at least once a year and many more often. I have no idea what their average daily protein intake was but it could not have been very high.

I was actually thinking of the flock of @U_Stormcrow

In his threads, he talks about controlling the feeding to avoid them having much fat, but occasionally comments on his lack of broody hens.

But yes, I have noticed you make that point several times, that hens have body fat stores for a good reason.

I'm not convinced human selection can make such drastic changes to such a primal instinct. Make it more difficult to present itself yes, but here we're talking about near complete eradication in some breeds amd production mixes. Since the brooding aspect is linked to other reproductive functions (such as copulation), wouldn't we have noticed some kind of difference there? Perhaps low fertility, or lack of reproductive drive in both males and females?

Your point about building a sufficient fat reserve is very interesting. I can only tell my experience, but the birds that have gone broody (this far, only two mix breed bantams) here were given feed that had higher protein than layer feed. My free range pen has layer feed included in their diet

Regarding the fat stores, I just realized: the breeds that are traditionally considered non-broody (Mediterranean breeds) are also ones that are typically lean rather than having a lot of fat. The breeds that are reputed to go broody frequently tend to also be known for a tendency to get fat (example: Orpingtons)

There is obviously not a perfect correlation, considering the body shape of Red Jungle Fowl (slender.) But I wonder if tendency to store different amounts of body fat could be part of the mechanism for a tendency to go broody vs. not go broody?

I have also seen that some hens go broody after laying just a few eggs (I had one hen that did it after 13 eggs, twice in a row), while some other hens lay for months before they go broody. If there is a genetic component to how many eggs the hen lays before she goes broody, then selecting for a larger clutch of eggs would make her go broody less often. Past a certain point, a hen would never go broody, because she would not lay "enough" eggs before fall comes and she molts and starts over.

Day length is known to have a big effect on whether a hen lays eggs. Some hens seem to need more hours of daylight than others (obvious in mixed-breed flocks that do not receive supplemental lighting during the winter.) I do not know whether day length also has an effect on whether a hen goes broody. But if it does, then maybe some hens are selected to need a day length that will never naturally happen, which would keep them from going broody. This would be similar to plants that only produce seeds or fruit at certain daylengths (several of the common garden plants are like this.)

I do not know for sure which mechanisms are involved in broodiness, but I can see several that might be, and there are probably others that I am missing. "Butcher the ones that go broody the most, and breed from the ones that go broody the least" would be an effective method of selection no matter what mechanism is involved, and people have certainly done a lot of that over the years.

 

[LaurenRitz]

I think there are a number of aspects to this. One, yes, is fat storage. Most female animals have some way of storing fat or nutrients. Also, most animals far below optimum weight or calorie count have fewer children.

There are many possible factors. But I also firmly believe that certain behavioral traits can be selected for. I have seen identical behaviors in succeeding generations, generations which never knew each other.

If some behaviors can be passed down, why not broodiness?

Another thing to consider, is that some animals have a population mechanism to control population when pressure gets too high. Since most chickens live in extremely cramped (if safe) environments, if they have this kind of mechanism it would likely be triggered in a coop situation.

 

[LaurenRitz]

Ok, I started a poll

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/informal-research-poll-on-broodiness.1625107/