BDutch's bantam flock & natural breeding projects #5 🪺 🪺 and #6

[RoyalChick]

If you had to make a distinction how would you describe the two, livestock and pet?

I will give it a go, but I think the question misses the point I was trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to make.
My point is that 'livestock or pet' is a false dichotomy. Having just two categories to describe the full complexity of our relationships with other species is inadequate.

In human relationships the dichotomy 'family or friend' would miss a whole host of relationships such as colleague (or the even less intimate American 'coworker' which, when I first saw the term, I thought was about farming). And I am not even touching on a host of others, largely derived from human social context, such as enemy, subordinate, boss, competitor etc.


So, I would lean towards something like the following:

Livestock: Animals kept solely or primarily for 'use' by the keeper. This would include whether that use is for food, labor, or entertainment for commercial purposes (e.g. circus or zoo animals).

Pet: Animals kept solely or primarily for companionship or personal entertainment of the keeper (entertainment without commercial gain).

Comrade: Animals kept for a balance of psychic and ‘use’ benefits, and with whom we have an individual relationships. I think This would include many back yard chicken flocks.

Ambassador: Wild animals who form friendships with individual humans such as @Perris's pheasant. This is not uncommon and could be considered a category of Comrade - we often provide food to the animal and we derive psychic, non-commercial, benefit (joy, entertainment etc.) from them. I chose Ambassador as in 'they are a representative from another species'. There is probably a better word.

***
I do not think these terms dictate how people treat the animal. A person can be concerned for the welfare of livestock (or not), can mistreat a pet (or not) etc.
Nor do I think it is defined by species as many species can cross boundaries. Chickens obviously. Horses can fall in any of the four categories.

Not sure I have expressed how I feel about this perfectly, but hopefully it provides some food for thought.

 

[ManueB]

I will give it a go, but I think the question misses the point I was trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to make.
My point is that 'livestock or pet' is a false dichotomy. Having just two categories to describe the full complexity of our relationships with other species is inadequate.

In human relationships the dichotomy 'family or friend' would miss a whole host of relationships such as colleague (or the even less intimate American 'coworker' which, when I first saw the term, I thought was about farming). And I am not even touching on a host of others, largely derived from human social context, such as enemy, subordinate, boss, competitor etc.


So, I would lean towards something like the following:

Livestock: Animals kept solely or primarily for 'use' by the keeper. This would include whether that use is for food, labor, or entertainment for commercial purposes (e.g. circus or zoo animals).

Pet: Animals kept solely or primarily for companionship or personal entertainment (entertainment without commercial gain).

Comrade: Animals with whom we have an individual relationship that provides a balance of give and receive on both sides. I think This would include many back yard chicken flocks.

Ambassador: Wild animals who form friendships with individual humans such as @Perris's pheasant. This is not uncommon and could be considered a category of Comrade - we often provide food to the animal and we derive psychic, non-commercial, benefit (joy, entertainment etc.) from them. I chose Ambassador as in 'they are a representative from another species'. There is probably a better word.

***
I do not think these terms dictate how people treat the animal. A person can be concerned for the welfare of livestock (or not), can mistreat a pet (or not) etc.
Nor do I think it is defined by species as many species can cross boundaries. Chickens obviously. Horses can fall in any of the four categories.

Not sure I have expressed how I feel about this perfectly, but hopefully it provides some food for thought.

But don't you think the notion of comrade leaves out the fact that the responsibility is clearly unbalanced ?

(We are responsible for the chicken's fate while they are not responsible for ours.)

Edit : fate probably isn't the right word, maybe conditions of life would be better.

 

[RoyalChick]

But don't you think the notion of comrade leaves out the fact that the responsibility is clearly unbalanced ?

(We are responsible for the chicken's fate while they are not responsible for ours.)

Edit : fate probably isn't the right word, maybe conditions of life would be better.

To me that does not need specifying because it goes with the concept of keeping. We have that responsibility for pets, comrades, and livestock.
But I realized I did not clarify that comrades are ‘kept’ (a distinction from Ambassadors) so I have edited the Comrade definition to hopefully make it more clear what I meant.

 

[BDutch]

Farming and pets again. Predators pets got shot on farms. Even in the UK.

My brother shot his predator bouvier dog after she broke free and killed some of my mothers chickens twice.

I can't see any reason why you should have to put up with someone elses cat stalking, or attacking your chickens.

The neighbour cats are part of the big neighbourhood family and I am rather sure they never killed one of my chickens.
Other cats might. But I have no proof for it. I only saw them chasing my tiny chickens who are not much bigger than a pigeon. The two pullets that vanished last year were even a bit smaller than the pigeons who live in the trees behind our garden. I don’t live rural, don’t have a (licence for) gun and if someone saw me shooting I could get in serious trouble with the law. And cat loving people who find out would hate me for it.

Only hunters with a permit are allowed to kill wild/stray cats. But not in an urban setting. Killing a domestic cat can get me in jail.

These two chasing cats belong to someone. A watergun is the best I can do.

 

[BDutch]

I'm not sure the livestock/pet dichotomy is sufficiently nuanced to represent the full diversity of animal keeping. It's simplified, but too abstracted from reality. I known goats, cows and sheep who never produced anything consumed by their attentive, loving carers. Are they pets or livestock?

Right. There is no hard distinction.
I do believe that people who keep animals for meat have livestock. And people who don’t kill their animals and keep them as long as they live keep pets. Regardless the kind of animal we are talking about.

My neighbour has a mini pig that’s definitely a pig and a pet. She a real sweetheart.
I have chickens I will keep till the day they die of natural causes or by predation and I consider them being pets. But it doesn’t mean I cuddle them.

Its often not completely white or black. Many poultry keepers keep them as a sort of a mix between livestock and pets.
There are many people who kill surplus roosters to keep peace in their flock and who kill sick chickens in pain. My mother killed her chickens after 3 years when they became less productive. She cared for them, and gave them a good live as long as they lived. In my opinion these were no pets.

 

[Shadrach]

I may have come over rather heavy handed last night in my posts. My appologies. I had a difficult day. Let me cool my hot head down a bit and I'll try to explain myself better.
Just bear in mind that my current chicken keeping circumstances are stranger than most so if I'm doing any pot calling the kettle black then throw the book at me.

 

[BDutch]

There's some degree of understanding there. I'm not saying she's my friend, but we seem to be working in tandem for the chicks' benefit.

Yes, nicely said. Being friends with chickens is something else as being friendly or enjoying them to be around.

Not sure I have expressed how I feel about this perfectly, but hopefully it provides some food for thought.

I love these categories/thoughts. Maybe not perfect, but there is no beed to be perfect!

That's a question I struggle with.
I don't think the species defined the category.
I suppose one criteria could be if you try to make a good life and keep in health an animal that isn't productive anymore.

Thanks for your contribution.
This is very true if you ask me.

I am very tempted to stop keeping chickens once all of ours pass. It is too much of a dilemma for me to know what is right.

I would understand this because it’s obvious you find it very hard to deal with sick chickens. But if you do, I do recommend to start again one day with a strong breed (not the laying hybrids and the one your neighbours don’t want anymore) and clean soil free of worms and such.

 

[BDutch]

I may have come over rather heavy handed last night in my posts. My appologies. I had a difficult day. Let me cool my hot head down a bit and I'll try to explain myself better.
Just bear in mind that my current chicken keeping circumstances are stranger than most so if I'm doing any pot calling the kettle black then throw the book at me.

Hope you feel better today Shad!
It must be difficult to care for chickens living 30 - 60 minutes away from where you live. And I highly respect you doing so.

I learned to know a bit of your character over the past two years and don’t mind all that you vent your thoughts the way you do. As I said before we are all different, different upbringing, different genes, different ability to express our thoughts in writing. It felt good to explain why I make other choices than you do.

And I know, I still have a lot to learn to keep my chickens safe and sound with some benefits for myself too.

Btw, I love these discussions and you all chiming in.

Edit vetter->better

 

[RoyalChick]

I may have come over rather heavy handed last night in my posts. My appologies. I had a difficult day. Let me cool my hot head down a bit and I'll try to explain myself better.
Just bear in mind that my current chicken keeping circumstances are stranger than most so if I'm doing any pot calling the kettle black then throw the book at me.

An apology worries me more than heavy handedness. Hope you are doing OK and today is better.

 

[fuzzi]

Hope you feel vetter today Shad!
It must be difficult to care for chickens living 30 - 60 minutes away from where you live. And I highly respect you doing so.

I learned to know a bit of your character over the past two years and don’t mind all that you vent your thoughts the way you do. As I said before we are all different, different upbringing, different genes, different ability to express our thoughts in writing. It felt good to explain why I make other choices than you do.

And I know, I still have a lot to learn to keep my chickens safe and sound with some benefits for myself too.

Btw, I love these discussions and you all chiming in.

I appreciate the discussion, even when people disagree. We're adults.