A friend wants to know.
How long should you wait after using frontline before hatching or eating eggs from the treated chickens?
How long should you wait after using frontline before hatching or eating eggs from the treated chickens?
Frontline ???
- Thread starter doxies1
- Start date
- Dec 6, 2009
- 7
- 10
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Hi All - I'm chiming in here because I have been wondering about using Frontline for my chix fleas (4 layers), that have spread throughout the garden and are now into the house. Its making the chix unhappy, and me as well, so in addition to treating the garden and house (we don't have other pets), I'm also going to go to the source and take care of the chix with Frontline.
But first, I felt like I had to do some research. I'm a scientist, so this might get a little technical, but you can jump to the end if you want. As mentioned before, there is low mammal toxicity from Fipronil (see fact sheet at: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ). So, some calculations to ask the question: What if I ATE the entire dose of fipronil I was giving to my chickens every month, how much would that be, and how would it compare to "allowable" doses.
Assumptions:
4 chickens
1 drop per chicken per month
1 drop = 0.05 mL (this is the standard conversion)
density of Frontline plus = 1 g/mL - i.e. that of water
Frontline Plus is 9.8% by weight Fipronil.
So:
1 drop per chicken per month x 4 chickens = 4 drops per mongh
4 drops per month x 0.05 mL per drop = 0.2 mL frontline plus per month
0.2 mL frontline plus per month x 1 g/mL = 0.2 g frontline plus per month
0.2 g frontline plus per month x 9.8% fipronil by weight in frontline plus = 0.0196 ~ 0.02 g fipronil per month = 20 mg fipronil per month.
Per the factsheet linked above, the chronic reference dose (RfD) for fipronil is 0.0002 mg/kg/day for humans - this is 100 x less than the NOAEL (No Observable Adverse Affects Level) for rats.
I weigh ~100 kg and one month = 30 days, so:
0.0002 mg/kg/day x 100 kg x 30 days/month = 0.6 mg per month as the chronic reference dose for me.
So, IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil I was dropping on chickens I would be eating ~ 20 mg fipronil per month. The chronic reference dose is 0.6 mg per month for me, so IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil, I would be eating about (20/0.6
33 times the reference dose. While higher than the reference dose, this is still about 1/3 of the NOAEL.
Based on this, I wouldn't feel comfortable eating all of the Frontline, and DO NOT suggest anyone drink the stuff, but since I'm not eating the whole chicken (and therefore not all of the fipronil) do I feel comfortable eating the eggs?
So, lets assume (though this doesn't seem to be the case as noted below) that when I put the fipronil on a chicken, it evenly distributes throughout the entire chicken, even into the egg she is just about to lay:
Assumptions:
1 chicken = 4.5 lbs which is around 2 kg
1 egg ~ 60 g ( http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mass_of_a_chicken_egg )
To calculate the concentration of Fipronil in the chicken:
1 drop = 0.005 g fipronil
0.005g fipronil divided by the mass of the chicken (2 kg) = 2.5 x 10^-6 g fipronil per gram chicken =2.5 ppm by mass fipronil for my chicken.
So, using my assumption that the egg has the same concentration of fipronil as the chicken, a 60-g egg has 60 g x 2.5 x 10^-6 = 0.15 mg fipronil
My chicken lays ~ 20 eggs/month so that's 20 eggs/month x 0.15 mg fipronil/egg = 3 mg fipronil per month if I eat every single egg my chicken lays.
This is still 5 times the reference dose of 0.6 mg/month for me, but this is assuming that 1) the fipronil partitions evenly into all parts of the chicken and 2) the fipronil concentration is the same all month (it isn't because it goes away via loss of poop, skin, feathers, etc). If I use all of the same assumptions, but assume that fipronil goes down throughout the month (either linearly to concentration of 0 at 30 days or exponentially using the whole-blood half-life given in the linked fact sheet ~7 days, calculations not shown, but I can share with the interested), my total fipronil consumption will be either 1.5 mg/month or 1.2 mg/month, meaning just 2 or 3 times the reference dose, which, remember is 100 times LESS than the NOAEL.
Using the exponential model, if I withhold eggs for 2 days, I'm down to 0.82 mg/month and after 5 days withdrawal, I am at 0.6 mg/month, which is the reference dose.
So, assuming that I EAT ALL OF THE EGGS for a chicken for a month and THE CONCENTRATION OF FIPRONIL IN THE EGGS IS THE SAME AS THE ENTIRE CHICKEN - I am just about at the reference dose, especially if I withdraw the eggs for a few days.
Getting more realistic, the concentration in the eggs is likely not the same as the whole chicken. If the concentration in the eggs was 1/2 of the entire chicken, then assuming you ate all of the eggs (in the exponential model) you'd be right at 0.6 mg/month, my reference dose. If it is 1/10th of the entire chicken, you'd be about 5x below the reference dose (0.012 mg/month).
I could find no data on the partitioning of fipronil into eggs from the chicken, but if what the manufacturer says about the fact that fipronil stays mostly in the skin (a fact backed up by: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ) then the 1/10th partitioning into an egg seems extremely conservative (i.e., I'd guess it was lower)
My conclusion: even if I were to eat all of my chicken's eggs in a month, I would be well below the reference dose. By the way, the chronic reference dose is the the United States Environmental Protection Agency's maximum acceptable oral dose of a toxic substance under chronic exposure ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_dose )
In future work - maybe I'll measure the amount of Fipronil in my chickens' eggs....
Hope this was helpful. It puts my own mind at ease. Lots of people made other excellent points (about alternatives etc.)
-Greg
But first, I felt like I had to do some research. I'm a scientist, so this might get a little technical, but you can jump to the end if you want. As mentioned before, there is low mammal toxicity from Fipronil (see fact sheet at: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ). So, some calculations to ask the question: What if I ATE the entire dose of fipronil I was giving to my chickens every month, how much would that be, and how would it compare to "allowable" doses.
Assumptions:
4 chickens
1 drop per chicken per month
1 drop = 0.05 mL (this is the standard conversion)
density of Frontline plus = 1 g/mL - i.e. that of water
Frontline Plus is 9.8% by weight Fipronil.
So:
1 drop per chicken per month x 4 chickens = 4 drops per mongh
4 drops per month x 0.05 mL per drop = 0.2 mL frontline plus per month
0.2 mL frontline plus per month x 1 g/mL = 0.2 g frontline plus per month
0.2 g frontline plus per month x 9.8% fipronil by weight in frontline plus = 0.0196 ~ 0.02 g fipronil per month = 20 mg fipronil per month.
Per the factsheet linked above, the chronic reference dose (RfD) for fipronil is 0.0002 mg/kg/day for humans - this is 100 x less than the NOAEL (No Observable Adverse Affects Level) for rats.
I weigh ~100 kg and one month = 30 days, so:
0.0002 mg/kg/day x 100 kg x 30 days/month = 0.6 mg per month as the chronic reference dose for me.
So, IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil I was dropping on chickens I would be eating ~ 20 mg fipronil per month. The chronic reference dose is 0.6 mg per month for me, so IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil, I would be eating about (20/0.6
Based on this, I wouldn't feel comfortable eating all of the Frontline, and DO NOT suggest anyone drink the stuff, but since I'm not eating the whole chicken (and therefore not all of the fipronil) do I feel comfortable eating the eggs?
So, lets assume (though this doesn't seem to be the case as noted below) that when I put the fipronil on a chicken, it evenly distributes throughout the entire chicken, even into the egg she is just about to lay:
Assumptions:
1 chicken = 4.5 lbs which is around 2 kg
1 egg ~ 60 g ( http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mass_of_a_chicken_egg )
To calculate the concentration of Fipronil in the chicken:
1 drop = 0.005 g fipronil
0.005g fipronil divided by the mass of the chicken (2 kg) = 2.5 x 10^-6 g fipronil per gram chicken =2.5 ppm by mass fipronil for my chicken.
So, using my assumption that the egg has the same concentration of fipronil as the chicken, a 60-g egg has 60 g x 2.5 x 10^-6 = 0.15 mg fipronil
My chicken lays ~ 20 eggs/month so that's 20 eggs/month x 0.15 mg fipronil/egg = 3 mg fipronil per month if I eat every single egg my chicken lays.
This is still 5 times the reference dose of 0.6 mg/month for me, but this is assuming that 1) the fipronil partitions evenly into all parts of the chicken and 2) the fipronil concentration is the same all month (it isn't because it goes away via loss of poop, skin, feathers, etc). If I use all of the same assumptions, but assume that fipronil goes down throughout the month (either linearly to concentration of 0 at 30 days or exponentially using the whole-blood half-life given in the linked fact sheet ~7 days, calculations not shown, but I can share with the interested), my total fipronil consumption will be either 1.5 mg/month or 1.2 mg/month, meaning just 2 or 3 times the reference dose, which, remember is 100 times LESS than the NOAEL.
Using the exponential model, if I withhold eggs for 2 days, I'm down to 0.82 mg/month and after 5 days withdrawal, I am at 0.6 mg/month, which is the reference dose.
So, assuming that I EAT ALL OF THE EGGS for a chicken for a month and THE CONCENTRATION OF FIPRONIL IN THE EGGS IS THE SAME AS THE ENTIRE CHICKEN - I am just about at the reference dose, especially if I withdraw the eggs for a few days.
Getting more realistic, the concentration in the eggs is likely not the same as the whole chicken. If the concentration in the eggs was 1/2 of the entire chicken, then assuming you ate all of the eggs (in the exponential model) you'd be right at 0.6 mg/month, my reference dose. If it is 1/10th of the entire chicken, you'd be about 5x below the reference dose (0.012 mg/month).
I could find no data on the partitioning of fipronil into eggs from the chicken, but if what the manufacturer says about the fact that fipronil stays mostly in the skin (a fact backed up by: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ) then the 1/10th partitioning into an egg seems extremely conservative (i.e., I'd guess it was lower)
My conclusion: even if I were to eat all of my chicken's eggs in a month, I would be well below the reference dose. By the way, the chronic reference dose is the the United States Environmental Protection Agency's maximum acceptable oral dose of a toxic substance under chronic exposure ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_dose )
In future work - maybe I'll measure the amount of Fipronil in my chickens' eggs....
Hope this was helpful. It puts my own mind at ease. Lots of people made other excellent points (about alternatives etc.)
-Greg
Quote:
Some people use it... but it's not labeled for Poultry and only works if applied directly to the skin. That's because this medication is carried in the bloodstream. That pretty much rules out meaties & egg layers for human consumption. And that's not even getting into the potentially dangerous effects to the birds themselves... Oh and did I mention it's VERY expensive along with all that risk? Yeah... dust/DE sound great don't they?
Frontline\\ Frontline Plus for fleas and ticks is not carried in the bloodstream! That is why it is an EPA regestered product not an FDA. If it goes in the bloodstream then it is FDA. It is carried to the oil glands by the oils on the body. I worked for the company, Merial who makes it for 11 years so i'm not just guessing. I know about all there is to know about fipronil. No harm to mamals. I have known many vets who have used the spray to treat head lice in kids. I'm not suggesting you do that but it has been done.
My two Polish hens had awful poultry head lice. I tried DE and Poultry Dust (permethrin) and cleaning the coop over and over with little effect. After reading the above post and several others that said that their vet had recommended it or that their vet was USING it, I decided to test the Frontline concentrate, even if it's an off-label use. Here's my reasoning:
- Permethrin's an insecticide. It says to put it on the hens and in their coop but not on the food or in the nest boxes. Well, if it's in the coop and on the hen, it's getting into the food and the nest box. The hens are rolling in permethrin dust all the time.
- Before products like Frontline, we used to have a flea collar on the dog. It meant the dog was in a cloud of insecticide all the time too, and when it wore off, we were back to a flea party. I thanked God for Frontline on the dog and cats.
- The Frontline web site says it works by accumulating in the oil glands of the mammal.
- Here's a technical fact sheet on fipronil. It says it is fatal to bobwhite quail, and has no effect at all on mallard ducks, but that's based on ingestion. A 79% solution was applied to the skin of a rat, and only 1% got absorbed within 24 hours at ALL doses tested. Evidence on cats and dogs "found that radio-labeled fipronil was distributed primarily in the superficial skin layers. Radio-labeled fipronil was not detected in the dermis or the hypodermis (adipose tissue).22"
OK. So: Since it's used in agriculture; it's safe for pregnant and lactating dogs and cats; evidence is it stays in the skin; ill effects have been noted from ingestion but not topical use; my hens looked utterly moth eaten: I put a drop on the head of two hens.
Mites died, hens lived, no change in skin or behavior. I'm going to use it monthly until winter, one or two drops per hen. I put it on the head since they can't get their beaks into it there.
As far as eating the eggs goes: I'm taking my chances on them, because they haven't been rolled in permethrin, and fipronil isn't going through the hens' bloodstreams. If I wanted to be super cautious, I'd throw out any egg laid 24-36 hours after application.
BTW, I'm not eating the meat of my chickens, but: The same technical fact sheet tested 655 chickens for evidence of fipronil in the tissues (since it's used agriculturally, etc., to see if it's in the food supply), and "One poultry breast (0.2%) and 2 poultry thighs (0.3%) had detectible levels of fipronil. No samples contained residues that exceeded the established U.S. EPA tolerances.29". I probably wouldn't eat the meat of hens directly dosed with Frontline, but I'm ok with the eggs.
I do hope they approve it for topical use on domestic poultry. I'll let you guys know what I notice over longer term use.
Peigi
p.s. I'm not bothering with the spray since it uses the exact same chemical at a lower dose, and I figure trying to spray it all over a hen would involve losing most of it into the air, breathing some of it, and less control over the dose anyway.
Some people use it... but it's not labeled for Poultry and only works if applied directly to the skin. That's because this medication is carried in the bloodstream. That pretty much rules out meaties & egg layers for human consumption. And that's not even getting into the potentially dangerous effects to the birds themselves... Oh and did I mention it's VERY expensive along with all that risk? Yeah... dust/DE sound great don't they?
Frontline\\ Frontline Plus for fleas and ticks is not carried in the bloodstream! That is why it is an EPA regestered product not an FDA. If it goes in the bloodstream then it is FDA. It is carried to the oil glands by the oils on the body. I worked for the company, Merial who makes it for 11 years so i'm not just guessing. I know about all there is to know about fipronil. No harm to mamals. I have known many vets who have used the spray to treat head lice in kids. I'm not suggesting you do that but it has been done.
My two Polish hens had awful poultry head lice. I tried DE and Poultry Dust (permethrin) and cleaning the coop over and over with little effect. After reading the above post and several others that said that their vet had recommended it or that their vet was USING it, I decided to test the Frontline concentrate, even if it's an off-label use. Here's my reasoning:
- Permethrin's an insecticide. It says to put it on the hens and in their coop but not on the food or in the nest boxes. Well, if it's in the coop and on the hen, it's getting into the food and the nest box. The hens are rolling in permethrin dust all the time.
- Before products like Frontline, we used to have a flea collar on the dog. It meant the dog was in a cloud of insecticide all the time too, and when it wore off, we were back to a flea party. I thanked God for Frontline on the dog and cats.
- The Frontline web site says it works by accumulating in the oil glands of the mammal.
- Here's a technical fact sheet on fipronil. It says it is fatal to bobwhite quail, and has no effect at all on mallard ducks, but that's based on ingestion. A 79% solution was applied to the skin of a rat, and only 1% got absorbed within 24 hours at ALL doses tested. Evidence on cats and dogs "found that radio-labeled fipronil was distributed primarily in the superficial skin layers. Radio-labeled fipronil was not detected in the dermis or the hypodermis (adipose tissue).22"
OK. So: Since it's used in agriculture; it's safe for pregnant and lactating dogs and cats; evidence is it stays in the skin; ill effects have been noted from ingestion but not topical use; my hens looked utterly moth eaten: I put a drop on the head of two hens.
Mites died, hens lived, no change in skin or behavior. I'm going to use it monthly until winter, one or two drops per hen. I put it on the head since they can't get their beaks into it there.
As far as eating the eggs goes: I'm taking my chances on them, because they haven't been rolled in permethrin, and fipronil isn't going through the hens' bloodstreams. If I wanted to be super cautious, I'd throw out any egg laid 24-36 hours after application.
BTW, I'm not eating the meat of my chickens, but: The same technical fact sheet tested 655 chickens for evidence of fipronil in the tissues (since it's used agriculturally, etc., to see if it's in the food supply), and "One poultry breast (0.2%) and 2 poultry thighs (0.3%) had detectible levels of fipronil. No samples contained residues that exceeded the established U.S. EPA tolerances.29". I probably wouldn't eat the meat of hens directly dosed with Frontline, but I'm ok with the eggs.
I do hope they approve it for topical use on domestic poultry. I'll let you guys know what I notice over longer term use.
Peigi
p.s. I'm not bothering with the spray since it uses the exact same chemical at a lower dose, and I figure trying to spray it all over a hen would involve losing most of it into the air, breathing some of it, and less control over the dose anyway.
I am wondering the same thing. I treated my birds with the spray for dogs and cats yesterday because nothing else has worked for my mite problem and I am getting worn out with the coop cleanouts, etc. From what I have read since it is not approved for poultry no tests have been done on the affect on the eggs. In theory since the spray is not absorbed into the blood stream there should be no affect on the eggs so no one knows for sure. Some vets warn about eating the eggs and others say it is nothing to worry about.
I just wanted to share my experience. I used a generic fipronil spot on for cats (concentration of 9.8%, or 98 mg/mL) on my flystruck Buff Orpington hen, (6 years old) yesterday. I had a life or death decision to make, as cleaning the area and picking out the maggots was getting us nowhere and was really stressing her out. She wasn't eating much, and wasn't able to stand, and didn't even struggle when I handled her.
Here is my line of thinking: The LD50 of 11.3 mg/kg for Fipronil in chickens is given for an oral dose, and the exposure is not the same for a topical dose. How much different, I don't know, but exposure can be significantly less. I am lucky enough to have the instruments (a pipettor) that measure liquids very accurately. I gave my girl about 2 mg/kg fipronil in one spot near her preen gland. She was being eaten alive and I had to do something or she would surely die. There were maggots in every feather tract on her back and butt and they were gaining on us.
In retrospect, I should probably have used ivermectin pour on for cattle that I have, it's also very fat soluble without a reversal agent. Apparently a lot of people toe the safety line and apply unmeasured drops of Frontline to their chickens to treat worms or mites. I don't think any of these things that aren't labeled for chickens can be used with confidence, so please be very careful.
ANYWAY. I am happy to report that she has turned a corner. No more maggots, and she was up at the waterer this morning, which is huge, considering she has been sleeping in an egg box for days, apparently unable to get up. Poor thing has been through the wringer this week.
Here is my line of thinking: The LD50 of 11.3 mg/kg for Fipronil in chickens is given for an oral dose, and the exposure is not the same for a topical dose. How much different, I don't know, but exposure can be significantly less. I am lucky enough to have the instruments (a pipettor) that measure liquids very accurately. I gave my girl about 2 mg/kg fipronil in one spot near her preen gland. She was being eaten alive and I had to do something or she would surely die. There were maggots in every feather tract on her back and butt and they were gaining on us.
In retrospect, I should probably have used ivermectin pour on for cattle that I have, it's also very fat soluble without a reversal agent. Apparently a lot of people toe the safety line and apply unmeasured drops of Frontline to their chickens to treat worms or mites. I don't think any of these things that aren't labeled for chickens can be used with confidence, so please be very careful.
ANYWAY. I am happy to report that she has turned a corner. No more maggots, and she was up at the waterer this morning, which is huge, considering she has been sleeping in an egg box for days, apparently unable to get up. Poor thing has been through the wringer this week.
Quote:
Which Frontline do you use? The one for dogs/cats, or the spray for poultry that ParrotsNPullets referred to? And how do you apply it under the wing, with a Qtip? I realize it's not an issue for you Lund Poultry, but am I understanding correctly (anyone else) that it is safe to eat the eggs after you use it on them?
Which Frontline do you use? The one for dogs/cats, or the spray for poultry that ParrotsNPullets referred to? And how do you apply it under the wing, with a Qtip? I realize it's not an issue for you Lund Poultry, but am I understanding correctly (anyone else) that it is safe to eat the eggs after you use it on them?
- Sep 8, 2010
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I used it on a batch of pullets I had that had a horrible Mite infestation and it worked amazing. I used Frontline Plus, put a drop on the back of each ones neck and it killed all the mites. They were not laying yet so I was not worried about egg withholding time. I wanted to use it on my layers but I cant find an egg withdraw time. Does anyone know how long you can not eat the eggs after treating with it?
Hmmm... well, I might have to get some Frontline specifically for the chickens and guineas. I quit using on our dogs several years ago when the fleas started throwing parties after I applied it.
Now we use Promeris on them. Strong smell when first applied is the only drawback.
Now we use Promeris on them. Strong smell when first applied is the only drawback.
I used dog. I used the little plastic snap-open package it came in, and am storing the rest in a small dropper vial. I put 1-2 drops on the head of a 4-lb polish hen.
The web site says the product does not expire when stored in its packaging at room temperature, so I'm assuming (again) that it will be ok at least in the short term stored in a closed vial. (I made this decision based on the fact that the spray lasts at room temperature stored inside of a spray bottle; but it's in a substrate.)
Please note, I admit I'm totally using Frontline:
- on an animal that it's not labeled for use on,
- administering a guess of a dose, and
- storing the leftover product in a way I made up.
If I end up with a yard of chickens with their legs in the air, I'll let you know. So far it's only the mites that are dead.
Peigi
The web site says the product does not expire when stored in its packaging at room temperature, so I'm assuming (again) that it will be ok at least in the short term stored in a closed vial. (I made this decision based on the fact that the spray lasts at room temperature stored inside of a spray bottle; but it's in a substrate.)
Please note, I admit I'm totally using Frontline:
- on an animal that it's not labeled for use on,
- administering a guess of a dose, and
- storing the leftover product in a way I made up.
If I end up with a yard of chickens with their legs in the air, I'll let you know. So far it's only the mites that are dead.
Peigi
Last edited:
Quote:
Isn't the only difference in the large dog and small dog the size of the vial it comes in? I don't think there is any difference in the Frontline itself. I have three small dogs and I bought one vial of large dog Frontline for them off eBay. Much cheaper!! It came in the plastic vial and then I also got a small glass vial to keep the surplus in and syringe to apply it with. It should last a small dog for three months. So, I don't think it matters if it's for a large dog, it's all the same stuff just in different sized containers. You should be OK applying it the same as everyone else.
Isn't the only difference in the large dog and small dog the size of the vial it comes in? I don't think there is any difference in the Frontline itself. I have three small dogs and I bought one vial of large dog Frontline for them off eBay. Much cheaper!! It came in the plastic vial and then I also got a small glass vial to keep the surplus in and syringe to apply it with. It should last a small dog for three months. So, I don't think it matters if it's for a large dog, it's all the same stuff just in different sized containers. You should be OK applying it the same as everyone else.
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