Lymphoid Leukosis in Murray McMurray birds?

[FunClucks]

I have an order coming next week from Murray McMurray containing cream crested legbars, and have heard that their parent stock contained lymphoid leukosis as of Oct 2021. I called Murray McMurray and they confirmed that none of their parent flocks of any breed are tested for this disease.

If so, I am highly concerned about ordering these from them. I also wonder which of their other parent flocks may carry this disease.

Anyone had trouble with birds of any breed coming from Murray McMurray having LL? Any idea where I can find birds that don't have it? How big of an issue is this?

My birds right now are from Hoovers via the feed store, and I have no indications of any type of disease in my current flock. We had some dry fowl pox and possibly some leg mites (not sure about it, but I treated for it), and a case of capillaria and giardia about 8 months ago. They've all been healthy and most are laying an egg a day at 1 year old. I'd like to keep it that way. I processed my flock rooster recently and saw no signs of tumors, enlargement or disease, at least not compared to the 21 CX I processed a month ago, which also looked healthy. I called Hoovers to ask about their LL testing/prevention status but don't have information on whether or not they test for LL yet (which would be history on my current flock). I read the MERCK veterinary manual entry on LL, but I can't figure out how concerned I should be.

I plan to sell eggs, and eventually breed and sell green and olive egger chicks. I keep my birds in a covered run due to predators and disease concerns, and do not free range.

My Murray McMurray order:

 

[nuthatched]

Hatcheries are required to have regular testing for disease to keep their npip required to shop birds.
Npip would shut down the hatchery if the birds had LL, where'd you hear this? It sounds like hogwash.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

Is this a rumor that your heard or from a credible source?

 

[FunClucks]

@HollowOfWisps @nuthatched

I called Murray McMurray directly, and asked if they tested their chicks and/or breeder flocks for Lymphoid Leukosis. The customer service rep inspected all the certifications paperwork and said they are not tested according to what she could see/read. I spelled LL out for the customer service rep so I know we were talking about the same thing. I asked if there was anyone else I could talk to about this. She took a minute and came back to the phone, and told me she'd talked with the president of the company, and they do not have a requirement for their breeder flocks to be tested for LL. She said the president told her they consider it a type of cancer, not an illness, and NPIP, etc, does not require testing for this. With all the other testing Murray McMurray does I was really surprised and was hoping the breeders do it but it's just not listed. But if it's not a requirement, then the breeder flocks do not have to show proof of compliance, and therefore do not have to test.

As far as where I heard this, I've read several online reviews (yes, I know online review can sometimes be questionable, but these seemed pretty legit), including one on the Murray McMurray website where the owner had a bird autopsied and it had symptoms consistent with LL. I was not looking at a lab report for her bird, and who knows where the LL came from, but asking some questions about hatchery practices seems a reasonable thing to do. Owner assessment (again, online, and limited number of reviews, so grain of salt) of McMurray CCLs has been 50% positive and 50% negative from what I can tell, with the negatives being fragile, doesn't handle shipping stress well, deaths at 4 months and 6 months, or just after start of lay, etc. Could be due to a number of factors, and I understand it's a hatchery, not a breeder, but again, something to consider.

So I figured I'd poll folks here, and see what they've experienced and encountered with McMurray birds, and particularly the CCLs, especially with respect to LL.

I know there are several members on here that have diagnosed LL in their flock. Also, I'm having trouble determining how seriously I should be concerned, whether LL is pretty much everywhere and there's not much I can do to avoid it, and many folks have it without knowing?

I'm trying to figure out whether I should accept my chick order and assume things will be fine until proven otherwise, or if I should try and hunt up other breeders or hatcheries that test for this in addition to the large amount of testing McMurray does. McMurray pretty much tests for everything I am concerned about (that I know to be concerned about) except for LL. I originally placed an order with McMurray because I want their Whiting True Blues, and they're the only hatchery who sells them, and I figured while I was at it I could get a few more chicks and accomplish some breeding goals I had. If I have to source the CCLs elsewhere, it may take me another year to get them. Trying to figure out if the delay would be worth it.

From the certificate they emailed me for my order:

From their website:
Check out their Biosecurity Page. Excerpt below

 

[nuthatched]

@HollowOfWisps @nuthatched

I called Murray McMurray directly, and asked if they tested their chicks and/or breeder flocks for Lymphoid Leukosis. The customer service rep inspected all the certifications paperwork and said they are not tested according to what she could see/read. I spelled LL out for the customer service rep so I know we were talking about the same thing. I asked if there was anyone else I could talk to about this. She took a minute and came back to the phone, and told me she'd talked with the president of the company, and they do not have a requirement for their breeder flocks to be tested for LL. She said the president told her they consider it a type of cancer, not an illness, and NPIP, etc, does not require testing for this. With all the other testing Murray McMurray does I was really surprised and was hoping the breeders do it but it's just not listed. But if it's not a requirement, then the breeder flocks do not have to show proof of compliance, and therefore do not have to test.

As far as where I heard this, I've read several online reviews (yes, I know online review can sometimes be questionable, but these seemed pretty legit), including one on the Murray McMurray website where the owner had a bird autopsied and it had symptoms consistent with LL. I was not looking at a lab report for her bird, and who knows where the LL came from, but asking some questions about hatchery practices seems a reasonable thing to do. Owner assessment (again, online, and limited number of reviews, so grain of salt) of McMurray CCLs has been 50% positive and 50% negative from what I can tell, with the negatives being fragile, doesn't handle shipping stress well, deaths at 4 months and 6 months, or just after start of lay, etc. Could be due to a number of factors, and I understand it's a hatchery, not a breeder, but again, something to consider.

So I figured I'd poll folks here, and see what they've experienced and encountered with McMurray birds, and particularly the CCLs, especially with respect to LL.

I know there are several members on here that have diagnosed LL in their flock. Also, I'm having trouble determining how seriously I should be concerned, whether LL is pretty much everywhere and there's not much I can do to avoid it, and many folks have it without knowing?

I'm trying to figure out whether I should accept my chick order and assume things will be fine until proven otherwise, or if I should try and hunt up other breeders or hatcheries that test for this in addition to the large amount of testing McMurray does. McMurray pretty much tests for everything I am concerned about (that I know to be concerned about) except for LL. I originally placed an order with McMurray because I want their Whiting True Blues, and they're the only hatchery who sells them, and I figured while I was at it I could get a few more chicks and accomplish some breeding goals I had. If I have to source the CCLs elsewhere, it may take me another year to get them. Trying to figure out if the delay would be worth it.

From the certificate they emailed me for my order:
View attachment 3472386
From their website:
Check out their Biosecurity Page. Excerpt below

View attachment 3472395

Considering that the way reviewers birds are raised is an unknown, I would not even consider their complaints in my considerations for a hatchery. They aren't worth noting. You're going to be hard pressed finding a breeder or hatchery that tests for LL as it's not required so I suppose flocks everywhere could 'carry' it, though if it's a form of cancer, I wouldn't of anything except a predisposition for it.
I've had birds from McMurray for 20 years, never had an issue.
You decide what's best for you but I think you might be worrying over nothing.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

@HollowOfWisps @nuthatched

I called Murray McMurray directly, and asked if they tested their chicks and/or breeder flocks for Lymphoid Leukosis. The customer service rep inspected all the certifications paperwork and said they are not tested according to what she could see/read. I spelled LL out for the customer service rep so I know we were talking about the same thing. I asked if there was anyone else I could talk to about this. She took a minute and came back to the phone, and told me she'd talked with the president of the company, and they do not have a requirement for their breeder flocks to be tested for LL. She said the president told her they consider it a type of cancer, not an illness, and NPIP, etc, does not require testing for this. With all the other testing Murray McMurray does I was really surprised and was hoping the breeders do it but it's just not listed. But if it's not a requirement, then the breeder flocks do not have to show proof of compliance, and therefore do not have to test.

As far as where I heard this, I've read several online reviews (yes, I know online review can sometimes be questionable, but these seemed pretty legit), including one on the Murray McMurray website where the owner had a bird autopsied and it had symptoms consistent with LL. I was not looking at a lab report for her bird, and who knows where the LL came from, but asking some questions about hatchery practices seems a reasonable thing to do. Owner assessment (again, online, and limited number of reviews, so grain of salt) of McMurray CCLs has been 50% positive and 50% negative from what I can tell, with the negatives being fragile, doesn't handle shipping stress well, deaths at 4 months and 6 months, or just after start of lay, etc. Could be due to a number of factors, and I understand it's a hatchery, not a breeder, but again, something to consider.

So I figured I'd poll folks here, and see what they've experienced and encountered with McMurray birds, and particularly the CCLs, especially with respect to LL.

I know there are several members on here that have diagnosed LL in their flock. Also, I'm having trouble determining how seriously I should be concerned, whether LL is pretty much everywhere and there's not much I can do to avoid it, and many folks have it without knowing?

I'm trying to figure out whether I should accept my chick order and assume things will be fine until proven otherwise, or if I should try and hunt up other breeders or hatcheries that test for this in addition to the large amount of testing McMurray does. McMurray pretty much tests for everything I am concerned about (that I know to be concerned about) except for LL. I originally placed an order with McMurray because I want their Whiting True Blues, and they're the only hatchery who sells them, and I figured while I was at it I could get a few more chicks and accomplish some breeding goals I had. If I have to source the CCLs elsewhere, it may take me another year to get them. Trying to figure out if the delay would be worth it.

From the certificate they emailed me for my order:
View attachment 3472386
From their website:
Check out their Biosecurity Page. Excerpt below

View attachment 3472395

The problem you run into with cancers is there can be genetic predisposition yes, but also environment and husbandry can play a role into things. Not to mention hatcheries sell millions of chickens every year so no matter how great the parent stock is there will always be chickens that end up with cancer that have come from any of the major hatcheries.

 

[FunClucks]

Considering that the way reviewers birds are raised is an unknown, I would not even consider their complaints in my considerations for a hatchery. They aren't worth noting. You're going to be hard pressed finding a breeder or hatchery that tests for LL as it's not required so I suppose flocks everywhere could 'carry' it, though if it's a form of cancer, I wouldn't of anything except a predisposition for it.
I've had birds from McMurray for 20 years, never had an issue.
You decide what's best for you but I think you might be worrying over nothing.

Okay, thanks for sharing your personal experience! I've never had their birds, so this is good to know. I really do hope I'm worrying over nothing.

LL is actually an infectious cancer, can spread through mating and from hen to chick when egg is formed, and from bird to bird in a flock. The age at which they come down with it and their genetic makeup determine the impact it has on their health and whether they pass it to others. There are 4 statuses of infected birds with their immunities laid out in the MERCK manual and they differ by whether they share the infection with others and have infected eggs (basically), but translating that into actual practice, and real-world impacts is where I was not sure.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

Okay, thanks for sharing your personal experience! I've never had their birds, so this is good to know. I really do hope I'm worrying over nothing.

LL is actually an infectious cancer, can spread through mating and from hen to chick when egg is formed, and from bird to bird in a flock. The age at which they come down with it and their genetic makeup determine the impact it has on their health and whether they pass it to others. There are 4 statuses of infected birds with their immunities laid out in the MERCK manual and they differ by whether they share the infection with others and have infected eggs (basically), but translating that into actual practice, and real-world impacts is where I was not sure.

“and from bird to bird in a flock” This is the problem with those reviews. Many people know absolutely nothing about basic bio security and you do not know what those birds in the reviews were exposed to outside of the hatchery.

 

[Hucklekree]

I have Murray stock in my egg laying flock. A nice wide selection. Haven't lost any so far got them all in 2019. All healthy and happy.

 

[FunClucks]

I have Murray stock in my egg laying flock. A nice wide selection. Haven't lost any so far got them all in 2019. All healthy and happy.

Any cream crested legbars or whiting true blue in your flock?