Possible Marek's, please help

[casportpony]

Thank you! The vet told me
He thought he would
Be ordering an antibiotic. It said the physical assessment
Did not support the need for it. Of course he could
Be wrong... he thought it was botulism or heavy metal ingestion. Sigh...

And the random death in what appeared to be a healthy bird just baffles me. This started after we moved them to a new area of the yard and had a couple of days of heavy rain. They basically act like they will melt in rain so they were all huddles up in the coops for a couple of days. Maybe they ate some mushrooms? No signs of respiratory infection.

The poop is not normal... you need to have a gram stain done.

 

[Feathers4Fun2]

Great questions? Your post has encouraged me to learn more about marek's and "mustang 56" mentioned coccidiosis. I am completely ignorant about both maladies aside from the fact I know they are out there. I will make it a point to educate myself on those diseases. I'm sorry you are experiencing trouble with your precious birds. I know how much they mean to you because I know how much mine mean to me. I am thankful I have not had to deal with marek's or coccidiosis. On march 18, 2016 I bought a straight run of 6, day old chicks from Tractor Supply Co. Four of them turned out to be cockerels and two of them pullets. The two Pullets (Hens) began laying August 1, 2016. In my case the major threat to my birds is predators from the woods. On the night of August 8, 2016 a forest critter terrorized my birds, thankfully none were killed but the smallest of my roosters was VERY haggard looking. At the end of September I stopped collecting the eggs and Oct 14, 2016 the Plymouth Rock Barred went broody the other hen was a Rhode Island Red. On November 4th I had a successful natural hatch. At this point all 13 of my birds the original 6 plus seven chicks from the natural hatch were prospering perfectly almost as though they read the text book and followed it to a "T". On the night of November 18, 2016 something unusual happened, I have no idea what it was but my one Rhode Island Red hen was stone dead (at 8 months old) on the morning of November 19, 2016 - no sign of being ruffed up by a forest critter - no scattered feathers, no evidence of foul play (no pun intended). She was healthy on the 18th with no sign of trouble then gone on the 19th. I'm thinking a heart attack! So now I have four roosters and one hen with 7 chicks. It shouldn't ought a be this way. I culled three roosters. As the little guys and gals from the first natural hatch continued to grow I had 5 pullets and 2 cockerels. Since then I culled the 2 cockerels leaving me with six hens and one rooster, that's more like it. On April 1, 2017 the second generation hens began laying and on May 18, 2017 one of the second generation hens went broody on a nest of 29 eggs. Natural hatch #2 is expected to occur June 8, 2017. Hey thanks for hanging in there with me. Let me refocus, the point of this reply to your post is that I have been very fortunate in terms of the lack of sickness, disease, and misfortune to my flock. Once again your post reminded me of the necessity to educate myself no other aspects of raising natural chickens and not just enjoying the good times. Hey thanks again and best wishes to you and your flock.

 

[Chickythom]

The poop is not normal... you need to have a gram stain done.

Should the vet perform this or should I collect and send off?

 

[Chickythom]

 

[Chickythom]

Unfortunately the videos were taken of them walking on linoleum flooring but they are pretty representative of status. She has deteriorated. He seems to be improving in the walking but now has frequent liquidy poop (as of last night). Hers seems pretty "normal" so far.

 

[mustang56]

Is it possible..... just asking.... if another bird may have jumped on their backs, causing injury.....
It happened to me once with 3 birds hurt, because the one guy was jumping on them and hurting them.... their legs split, and had difficulty walking and attempting to get up.
Two recovered quickly while the other took almost two months...

 

[Chickythom]

Is it possible..... just asking.... if another bird may have jumped on their backs, causing injury.....
It happened to me once with 3 birds hurt, because the one guy was jumping on them and hurting them.... their legs split, and had difficulty walking and attempting to get up.
Two recovered quickly while the other took almost two months...

I suppose anything is possible but I have not observed the behavior in them. They have not reached sexual maturity or at least I have not observed a mounting behavior. Possibly a pecking order behavior? I am not sure.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

All things are possible but I'm afraid those videos are pretty classic Marek's paralysis, particularly the second one doing the splits, although not all will do that and you may also get birds that die suddenly from it due to visceral tumours with no apparent paralysis. Marek's also suppresses the immune system, so birds can start to suffer from the likes of coccidiosis or respiratory disease because their immune system is compromised and sometimes these ailments actually kill them before any real Marek's symptoms have time to exhibit.

Once you have more than one young chicken showing symptoms like this, you are kidding yourself if you don't accept that Marek's is the most likely diagnosis. It is such a common virus of young chickens and so easily spread. Chickens are incredibly tough (anyone who has butchered chickens will know this), so whilst one getting injured by another bird or perhaps flying down off a high roost and causing a sprain may happen, more than one sustaining such an injury is extremely unlikely particularly when they all happen within a short time frame.

I find that stress is usually the trigger of an outbreak. Young cockerels with raging hormones starting to terrorise pullets, or being confined to a small area or surge of hormones at point of lay for pullet, sometimes even being cast off by their broody hen.

I would like to be wrong for your chickens' sake, but from those videos, the age of the birds and their source, I am pretty confident that is it Marek's

 

[Chickythom]

Hi

All things are possible but I'm afraid those videos are pretty classic Marek's paralysis, particularly the second one doing the splits, although not all will do that and you may also get birds that die suddenly from it due to visceral tumours with no apparent paralysis. Marek's also suppresses the immune system, so birds can start to suffer from the likes of coccidiosis or respiratory disease because their immune system is compromised and sometimes these ailments actually kill them before any real Marek's symptoms have time to exhibit.

Once you have more than one young chicken showing symptoms like this, you are kidding yourself if you don't accept that Marek's is the most likely diagnosis. It is such a common virus of young chickens and so easily spread. Chickens are incredibly tough (anyone who has butchered chickens will know this), so whilst one getting injured by another bird or perhaps flying down off a high roost and causing a sprain may happen, more than one sustaining such an injury is extremely unlikely particularly when they all happen within a short time frame.

I find that stress is usually the trigger of an outbreak. Young cockerels with raging hormones starting to terrorise pullets, or being confined to a small area or surge of hormones at point of lay for pullet, sometimes even being cast off by their broody hen.

I would like to be wrong for your chickens' sake, but from those videos, the age of the birds and their source, I am pretty confident that is it Marek's

My fear as well based on all you mentioned. I am hoping one of the individuals with confirmed Marek's can share their point of view on the videos too. Thank you all for your insight, concern, and support. I am pretty devastated and really unsure how to proceed. Especially with 24 seemingly healthy birds frolicking outside my window.

 

[rebrascora]

I am hoping one of the individuals with confirmed Marek's can share their point of view on the videos too

Sadly I am one of those individuals, but I understand that more opinions from others are helpful! My experience with Marek's has not been nearly as bad as a lot of the stories you read, and whilst I was pretty devastated at first, you do learn to manage it. My broody hens raised 56 chicks last year mostly within the Marek's flock and only 3 showed symptoms. Two I had to euthanize after a couple of weeks of TLC but the third appears to be completely normal and you would not know he had ever been so sick that he was also close to being put to sleep too.

As regards your questions:-

1. If this is Marek's, like I believe, how can we disinfect/minimize viral exposure in the seemingly healthy flock outside? I purchased VikronStablets but have no idea what to do to the pasture short of just running our lawn vacuum over the area and disposing of poop/feathers. Thoughts/advice?
Personally I have not tried to eradicate it. My birds free range and my hens have access to many old stone buildings which have lots of nooks and crannies where dander dust can get blown and collect or be carried by rats etc. It is just not feasible to remove the exposure. I work on the basis that chicks are broody hatched and raised from survivors within the Marek's exposed flock. Broody reared chicks tend to have stronger immune systems and perhaps they develop some sort of immunity from that early exposure. Of course it is heart breaking to lose even one chick to it, but chicks and hens can die from a plethora of ailments and injuries.

2. If we do not have any other deceased birds between today and Wednesday, should I let he vet euthanize one of my symptomatic birds to perform a necropsy?
I have had birds with it recover to a reasonable quality of life (free range with a limp) after 3 months of TLC so I only euthanize once they stop eating and drinking. I would therefore not want to encourage you to euthanize one that might pick up just to get a diagnosis, although I can understand your need to know for sure.

3. Should I pay for a nonchicken expert, but avian vet, to perform said necropsy (sees exotics typically)?
You would be better getting it done by a state lab or university facility that have knowledge of poultry. Some may even offer a free service. I'm in the UK so I can't advise you on options in the USA or elsewhere in the world.

4. How do I protect others from what we may have when it is all over our yard, car, etc? Should we just spray our shoes with VikronS solution before getting in the car? What about our tires or delivery men that come Into our yard? We would like to be responsible and respectful of others; however I also want to minimize potential chemicalexposure to my flock and family.
You can only take reasonable precautions. Not visiting other people's poultry unless you have changed clothes after tending your flock. Not taking your chickens to shows/swaps etc. Not selling or passing on your chickens to others.

5. The land we live on is a rental and we will be relocating to our personal homestead in a few months. Should we cull all birds, disinfect or destroy all our birdkeeping items, and dinfect our belongings in efforts to start again without Marek's in our new home/land? If so, should we vaccinate future birds?
This is a difficult one and I'm really not sure what I would do. Although I do process my excess cockerels, I would find it incredibly difficult to cull my hens, particularly the special ones and to be honest, with the low level of Marek's sufferers that I get, I couldn't justify it, but if you have a particularly virulent strain and get several more losses, then you might be best, culling and starting again at the new premises. The Marek's vaccine is derived from the turkey strain and is apparently considered an imperfect vaccine. There was research a couple of years ago that suggested that the vaccine may be responsible for the more virulent strains of Marek's that are emerging. Certainly, here in the UK where most backyard flocks are not vaccinated, most people's experience is similar to mine from what I have heard... a few young birds are lost to it but the majority survive.
6. Should I quarantine my two birds in the house indefinitely or is it safe to construct an outside individual enclosure for each, away from the other birds? I hate having them stuck in the house but I was trying to minimize their fear/stress and improve comfort/vigilance.
I don't isolate my sick birds as such but provide them with supportive care within the flock....I take the view that the flock has already been exposed and the sick birds are happier in their normal environment and therefore more likely to recover. Stressed/depressed birds often go downhill quickly. Sunshine and grass and the company of other chickens are what I have found beneficial over the past 3 years with it. A cage within the run is necessary if they are sufficiently incapacitated to be vulnerable to bullying.

7. If this is Marek's how long will it take to decimate my poor flock? Should my symptomatic birds be worse off? Our breeder and vet both seemed to think they would progress quickly and present severe neurological decline and deficits if Marek's was the causative agent. I have read otherwise.
It depends on the strain and your local conditions and any number of other factors including breeding and the bird's immune system and spirit. I've just lost a 2 year old bird that had a dropped wing due to Marek's as a youngster, recovered after a few weeks and has been absolutely fine until I had to confine my flock during the winter due to bird flu restrictions. She stared to show signs of lameness which I initially thought/hoped might be bumble foot or a sprain because she was still laying and otherwise looked quite healthy. She held her own with support for 4 months. but during the past few weeks it became obvious it was Marek's and I had to euthanize her once she stopped eating. My little bantam cockerel from last year that was unable to walk for a fortnight is running around 9 months later with no sign of any lameness/paralysis or illness whatsoever, making a right nuisance of himself with my large fowl ladies. I've had others that went downhill in a matter of a week/fortnight. I've had the odd one that died very suddenly with no symptoms which I suspect had visceral tumours. It is such a difficult disease to predict because there are so many variables. I try to do my own necropsies now whenever I have time to improve my knowledge of it.

I hope the above gives you some guidance and a little encouragement that things may not be as bad as some of the stuff you read about Marek's. I was pretty panic stricken at first and of course each one you lose to it is heart breaking but on the whole it has not been a big issue and there are worse problems to have.

Best wishes

Barbara