Where can I find Ayam Cemani Putih ( White Ayam Cemani )

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

I would like to know where I can find the even rarer Ayam Cemani Putih? ( The WHite Ayam Cemani )

 

[JacinLarkwell]

@CiaBia used to have some

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

Thanks for the info, but I already knew she had White ACs, I was looking for other breeders to get enough genetic diversity when I get poultry.

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

Do you know if anyone else has White Ayam Cemani?

 

[dheltzel]

Ayam cemani are always black, that is what the name translates to (black chicken). I have had recessive white chicks pop up in my line of AC, but I always cull them and stopped using that rooster to minimize the chance of the recessive white popping up again. Anyone trying to pass off any non-black bird as a "pure" Ayam cemani should be avoided, there are enough poor breeders of this breed without encouraging weird mutations and crossbreeds under that name. It is not easy to produce high quality Ayam cemanis, but it is easy to make crossbreeds or select the lower quality birds and pass them off as "special". The fastest way to ruin your reputation as a cemani breeder is to sell off type birds as pure.

If you want to turn a single white sport from a line of AC into a whole line, it would be trivial to do so, but please don't call them "White Ayam cemani", make up some other name that does not have "cemani" in it. If you told someone you had a "White Black Chicken" what would they think? Maybe a barred rock?

If you cross an Ayam cemani and a white Silkie, you would retain much of the black tissue, and the resulting black birds would carry 2 recessive genes, white and silkied. By crossing those F1's, you would get a whole range of birds, some white non-silkied and some black silkied. But neither would ever be a real cemani.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Ayam cemani are always black, that is what the name translates to (black chicken). I have had recessive white chicks pop up in my line of AC, but I always cull them and stopped using that rooster to minimize the chance of the recessive white popping up again. Anyone trying to pass off any non-black bird as a "pure" Ayam cemani should be avoided, there are enough poor breeders of this breed without encouraging weird mutations and crossbreeds under that name. It is not easy to produce high quality Ayam cemanis, but it is easy to make crossbreeds or select the lower quality birds and pass them off as "special". The fastest way to ruin your reputation as a cemani breeder is to sell off type birds as pure.

If you want to turn a single white sport from a line of AC into a whole line, it would be trivial to do so, but please don't call them "White Ayam cemani", make up some other name that does not have "cemani" in it. If you told someone you had a "White Black Chicken" what would they think? Maybe a barred rock?

If you cross an Ayam cemani and a white Silkie, you would retain much of the black tissue, and the resulting black birds would carry 2 recessive genes, white and silkied. By crossing those F1's, you would get a whole range of birds, some white non-silkied and some black silkied. But neither would ever be a real cemani.

Curious how it wouldn't be considered a cemani if it came from cemanis. From what I understand, they are completely black inside like Cemani should be. They just happen to have white feathers.

 

[dheltzel]

This is where raisers and breeders diverge. A good breeder considers himself a steward of the breed and seeks to improve or at least maintain without eroding the gene pool for that breed. These are by nature, highly refined, non-wild, creatures. They were bred to have certain defining qualities. Many breeds have these qualities defined rather precisely in a Standard of Perfection. If you enter a bird into the Ameraucana class of a poultry show, and that bird has yellow legs, it will be disqualified. It won't place last, it will be declared not a real Ameraucana, and Ameraucana breeders everywhere have agreed to that standard when showing. Some traits will simply be marked down, but some traits are disqualifying, to prevent someone entering a Barred Rock into the Ameraucana class at a show.
Ayam cemani have not been admitted to the APA, so their standard has not been published in the SOP, but it is being worked on. The first and foremost breed characteristic, that every serious breeder can agree upon, is that the birds are entirely black, no other color feathers anywhere. Some breeders tolerate a little white on the toenails or a pink tongue, others do not, so there is disagreement about what is tolerable in some borderline areas, but all want to have complete and total blackness, that is the standard for Ayam cemani. Calling any non-black bird a cemani is like calling an "Americana" from a hatcher with yellow legs, a real Ameraucana, the breeders will disagree and the bird would be disqualified as that breed.

A "raiser" will buy hatchery Easter Eggers and because the hatchery labeled them as "Ameraucanas", they will hatch eggs from them and sell them as Ameraucana. Nothing illegal about that, but people looking for the real deal will be very unhappy if they buy from them and eventually their reputation will be for selling mongrel chicks, not real breeds. If you are not willing to cull your poor quality birds (I sometimes sell them as "mixed breed chicks" so as not to confuse anyone), you are not really breeding as you should. I keep a lot of breeds and I have breeding "goals" for all of them. Some are nearly perfect now and my goals are about maintaining vitality and avoiding inbreeding depression, some are far from where I want them and I have plans for the next several generations to move them toward where I want them to be.

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

Ayam cemani are always black, that is what the name translates to (black chicken). I have had recessive white chicks pop up in my line of AC, but I always cull them and stopped using that rooster to minimize the chance of the recessive white popping up again. Anyone trying to pass off any non-black bird as a "pure" Ayam cemani should be avoided, there are enough poor breeders of this breed without encouraging weird mutations and crossbreeds under that name. It is not easy to produce high quality Ayam cemanis, but it is easy to make crossbreeds or select the lower quality birds and pass them off as "special". The fastest way to ruin your reputation as a cemani breeder is to sell off type birds as pure.

If you want to turn a single white sport from a line of AC into a whole line, it would be trivial to do so, but please don't call them "White Ayam cemani", make up some other name that does not have "cemani" in it. If you told someone you had a "White Black Chicken" what would they think? Maybe a barred rock?

If you cross an Ayam cemani and a white Silkie, you would retain much of the black tissue, and the resulting black birds would carry 2 recessive genes, white and silkied. By crossing those F1's, you would get a whole range of birds, some white non-silkied and some black silkied. But neither would ever be a real cemani.

The white Ayam cemani actually exists in Indonesia. They are known as Ayam Cemani Putih. The Putihs in the US are pure, they aren't crosses. There are breeders who breed for these as well as standard ACs in Indonesia. They aren't sports, they're just not well known here. As far as we know there is only one breeder of this variety in the US. Silkies are fibro, aren't they? Yet, they have many recognized color varieties. Why not the same with the Ayam Cemani?

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

The Ayam Cemani Putihs aren't lower quality birds either. They are just an Ayam Cemani with white feathers, and I believe they should be considered a variety of Ayam Cemani by the Ayam Cemani association, and by the APA. If all Ayam Cemani were just black, and they became quite common, why have a flock of birds that can almost never churn out any other color but black? The white on a black backround is a beautiful contrast image to see. Why cull them if we could make them an official variety that deserves the same attention as Standard ACs

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

This is where raisers and breeders diverge. A good breeder considers himself a steward of the breed and seeks to improve or at least maintain without eroding the gene pool for that breed. These are by nature, highly refined, non-wild, creatures. They were bred to have certain defining qualities. Many breeds have these qualities defined rather precisely in a Standard of Perfection. If you enter a bird into the Ameraucana class of a poultry show, and that bird has yellow legs, it will be disqualified. It won't place last, it will be declared not a real Ameraucana, and Ameraucana breeders everywhere have agreed to that standard when showing. Some traits will simply be marked down, but some traits are disqualifying, to prevent someone entering a Barred Rock into the Ameraucana class at a show.
Ayam cemani have not been admitted to the APA, so their standard has not been published in the SOP, but it is being worked on. The first and foremost breed characteristic, that every serious breeder can agree upon, is that the birds are entirely black, no other color feathers anywhere. Some breeders tolerate a little white on the toenails or a pink tongue, others do not, so there is disagreement about what is tolerable in some borderline areas, but all want to have complete and total blackness, that is the standard for Ayam cemani. Calling any non-black bird a cemani is like calling an "Americana" from a hatcher with yellow legs, a real Ameraucana, the breeders will disagree and the bird would be disqualified as that breed.

A "raiser" will buy hatchery Easter Eggers and because the hatchery labeled them as "Ameraucanas", they will hatch eggs from them and sell them as Ameraucana. Nothing illegal about that, but people looking for the real deal will be very unhappy if they buy from them and eventually their reputation will be for selling mongrel chicks, not real breeds. If you are not willing to cull your poor quality birds (I sometimes sell them as "mixed breed chicks" so as not to confuse anyone), you are not really breeding as you should. I keep a lot of breeds and I have breeding "goals" for all of them. Some are nearly perfect now and my goals are about maintaining vitality and avoiding inbreeding depression, some are far from where I want them and I have plans for the next several generations to move them toward where I want them to be.

I do agree with your definitions of a " breeder " and a " raiser " though.