Advice needed: foundation for coop/run combo (photo included)

[3KillerBs]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I should have been more clear in my post. The concrete would just be the base - there would be dirt or shavings added on top of that for scratching and such!

Still not good -- unless you're talking at least a foot of litter over the concrete -- at which point there's no point to the concrete.

In addition to the fact that chickens need to be able to express their natural instincts and my conviction that a lot of behavior issues that backyarders have are the result of setups that don't allow the expression of natural instincts ...

The ability of chickens to dig down to reach cooler layers of ground is a critical part of managing chickens in a hot climate. I make no interventions in re: heat other than to give electrolytes once a week when temperatures hit the mid 90's and have had absolutely no heat-related problems with my birds.

Part of this is that they are acclimated to my temperatures (the situation is different with chickens suddenly exposed to unusual heat than to birds who live in a hot climate), but I believe that their ability to pick a shady spot and dig in to spend the hot parts of the day in their little resting pits -- which are often so deep that that a given hen is down to the level of her back -- is one of the major reasons that I don't have to use ice, frozen treats, etc. to keep them healthy.

@U_Stormcrow, I know that you also make minimal heat-protective interventions in a climate very similar to the OP's. Do your chickens also dig in the way mine do?

For those of you with dirt foundation, does it help to have the concrete block footers or frame buried in the ground to prevent water from seeping in the coop?

The way to prevent water from getting into the coop is to pick a site with good drainage -- where water neither runs across the ground through the coop/run area nor pools in that area.

The money that you might spend pouring concrete would be better spent grading the site and, if necessary, installing French drains, grass swales, or diversion ditches.

A concrete block footer is, however, helpful to level the site of the coop and to make it harder for wood-eating insects and fungi to destroy your coop's base beams in our hot, humid, wood-destroying climate. It only needs to go below your minimal frostline -- probably only a couple inches.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Still not good -- unless you're talking at least a foot of litter over the concrete -- at which point there's no point to the concrete.

In addition to the fact that chickens need to be able to express their natural instincts and my conviction that a lot of behavior issues that backyarders have are the result of setups that don't allow the expression of natural instincts ...

The ability of chickens to dig down to reach cooler layers of ground is a critical part of managing chickens in a hot climate. I make no interventions in re: heat other than to give electrolytes once a week when temperatures hit the mid 90's and have had absolutely no heat-related problems with my birds.

Part of this is that they are acclimated to my temperatures (the situation is different with chickens suddenly exposed to unusual heat than to birds who live in a hot climate), but I believe that their ability to pick a shady spot and dig in to spend the hot parts of the day in their little resting pits -- which are often so deep that that a given hen is down to the level of her back -- is one of the major reasons that I don't have to use ice, frozen treats, etc. to keep them healthy.

@U_Stormcrow, I know that you also make minimal heat-protective interventions in a climate very similar to the OP's. Do your chickens also dig in the way mine do?



The way to prevent water from getting into the coop is to pick a site with good drainage -- where water neither runs across the ground through the coop/run area nor pools in that area.

The money that you might spend pouring concrete would be better spent grading the site and, if necessary, installing French drains, grass swales, or diversion ditches.

A concrete block footer is, however, helpful to level the site of the coop and to make it harder for wood-eating insects and fungi to destroy your coop's base beams in our hot, humid, wood-destroying climate. It only needs to go below your minimal frostline -- probably only a couple inches.

YUP!

In fact, one of my chicken's favorite places to dig in is right NEXT to the concrete that forms the foundation around the perimiter of my barn. They have dug and turned so much soil out at this point that there is risk they will expose to bottom of the foundations in places (FL - shallow foundations, we have no frost line).

Earth is the worlds largest heat sink - a dig even a few inches down, which chickens can easily achieve, can reduce the temp dramatically. 4" below ground, the soil temp will lag the day's heat by a couple hours, and never reach the day's peak (or minimum), instead showing a much narrower range, and much closer to the area's annual average (with a time lagged adjustment for season).

I don't recall where @BougieChicken is at, but they should google something like this. A freshly dug hole, 2" deep is likely about 2 degrees cooler than AM temps mid morning, first thing in the AM. A 4" hole, likely similar. Depending on region and soil conditions, you might see as much as a 4 degrees temp difference at 6" but likely not.

That's not much better.

The difference is in both lag and moderaiton. Imagine you wake up at 80 degrees, as I am. You expect a 15 degree rise in temp over the course of the day, peaking between 2 and 3 pm - 95 degrees, decidedly unpleasant. Chances are, the 4"-6" pit a chicken digs starts around 78, and will peak out at just 86 degrees or so, and that closer to 4 or 4:30 pm in the afternoon. It doesn't sound like much, but by spreading a lot of their body across the pit, maintaining surface contact, they can transfer excess heat to the earth much more quickly than they might try to give it up to the air.

Much like us sweating.

When chickens dig in a shade sheltered area, which doesn't see direct heating by sunlight (under the mulberry bush, in the shade of my barn's broad roof overhang, etc, the differences can be even more pronounced.

Crudely, you can assume the shallow soil temp early AM is probably 2 degrees cooler than the air temp, and will "swing" over the course of the day maybe 2/3 of the air temp's range, so if the thermometer climbs 15 degrees in air temp, you might see 10 degrees in soil temp, possibly less. and because of the soil's capacity to "hold" heat, sudden heat waves tend to mean that the soil's temp a few inches down will be much closer to seasonal norms as a starting point, rather than closer to the historic highs being set in air temps.

Sadly, to get to constant temp, you need to be a good 15' down or so - like the foundations of the concrete house my wife and I are building. 68-70 degrees over the course of the year, delayed almost 6 months (warmer in "winter", cooler in "summer").

 

[BougieChicken]

Still not good -- unless you're talking at least a foot of litter over the concrete -- at which point there's no point to the concrete.

In addition to the fact that chickens need to be able to express their natural instincts and my conviction that a lot of behavior issues that backyarders have are the result of setups that don't allow the expression of natural instincts ...

The ability of chickens to dig down to reach cooler layers of ground is a critical part of managing chickens in a hot climate. I make no interventions in re: heat other than to give electrolytes once a week when temperatures hit the mid 90's and have had absolutely no heat-related problems with my birds.

Part of this is that they are acclimated to my temperatures (the situation is different with chickens suddenly exposed to unusual heat than to birds who live in a hot climate), but I believe that their ability to pick a shady spot and dig in to spend the hot parts of the day in their little resting pits -- which are often so deep that that a given hen is down to the level of her back -- is one of the major reasons that I don't have to use ice, frozen treats, etc. to keep them healthy.

@U_Stormcrow, I know that you also make minimal heat-protective interventions in a climate very similar to the OP's. Do your chickens also dig in the way mine do?



The way to prevent water from getting into the coop is to pick a site with good drainage -- where water neither runs across the ground through the coop/run area nor pools in that area.

The money that you might spend pouring concrete would be better spent grading the site and, if necessary, installing French drains, grass swales, or diversion ditches.

A concrete block footer is, however, helpful to level the site of the coop and to make it harder for wood-eating insects and fungi to destroy your coop's base beams in our hot, humid, wood-destroying climate. It only needs to go below your minimal frostline -- probably only a couple inches.

Thank you for your help here! This is good to consider about the amount of ground material and drainage options. Thank you thank you!

 

[BougieChicken]

YUP!

In fact, one of my chicken's favorite places to dig in is right NEXT to the concrete that forms the foundation around the perimiter of my barn. They have dug and turned so much soil out at this point that there is risk they will expose to bottom of the foundations in places (FL - shallow foundations, we have no frost line).

Earth is the worlds largest heat sink - a dig even a few inches down, which chickens can easily achieve, can reduce the temp dramatically. 4" below ground, the soil temp will lag the day's heat by a couple hours, and never reach the day's peak (or minimum), instead showing a much narrower range, and much closer to the area's annual average (with a time lagged adjustment for season).

I don't recall where @BougieChicken is at, but they should google something like this. A freshly dug hole, 2" deep is likely about 2 degrees cooler than AM temps mid morning, first thing in the AM. A 4" hole, likely similar. Depending on region and soil conditions, you might see as much as a 4 degrees temp difference at 6" but likely not.

That's not much better.

The difference is in both lag and moderaiton. Imagine you wake up at 80 degrees, as I am. You expect a 15 degree rise in temp over the course of the day, peaking between 2 and 3 pm - 95 degrees, decidedly unpleasant. Chances are, the 4"-6" pit a chicken digs starts around 78, and will peak out at just 86 degrees or so, and that closer to 4 or 4:30 pm in the afternoon. It doesn't sound like much, but by spreading a lot of their body across the pit, maintaining surface contact, they can transfer excess heat to the earth much more quickly than they might try to give it up to the air.

Much like us sweating.

When chickens dig in a shade sheltered area, which doesn't see direct heating by sunlight (under the mulberry bush, in the shade of my barn's broad roof overhang, etc, the differences can be even more pronounced.

Crudely, you can assume the shallow soil temp early AM is probably 2 degrees cooler than the air temp, and will "swing" over the course of the day maybe 2/3 of the air temp's range, so if the thermometer climbs 15 degrees in air temp, you might see 10 degrees in soil temp, possibly less. and because of the soil's capacity to "hold" heat, sudden heat waves tend to mean that the soil's temp a few inches down will be much closer to seasonal norms as a starting point, rather than closer to the historic highs being set in air temps.

Sadly, to get to constant temp, you need to be a good 15' down or so - like the foundations of the concrete house my wife and I are building. 68-70 degrees over the course of the year, delayed almost 6 months (warmer in "winter", cooler in "summer").

Thank you for your input here! This is very helpful!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you for your input here! This is very helpful!

This site has been very helpful and supportive to me on my chicken owning journey. Just happy I have something to add to begin repaying that investment in me. May your own chicken journey be more rewarding than you have hoped for.