At what point is overkill on permiter run fencing?

[rosemarythyme]

In my experience hardware cloth is pretty heavy duty... I'm not sure why I would need to add the welded wire if I do hardware cloth?

We haven't had any problems with bears, but they are around. I'm guessing they aren't going to be a big issue.

It's heavy enough for everything up to a raccoon, I'd say. I know there's been photos of dogs and large male raccoons tearing through HWC.

My run definitely isn't predator proof but it's mostly predator resistant for our needs thus far: chain link with concreted in posts, HWC up the bottom few feet and out, and netting over the top for aerial predators. We do have bears but again, lazy ones. Even chain link wouldn't do anything if a bear wanted to go through it.

 

[CraziChknLady]

To the title: When you can no longer access your chickens

To the body of the post:
We have found 2x4 4ft welded wire "No climb" fence with metal t-posts every 8 ft to be sufficient for our chicken yards.
It's less pricey which helps us give them a big yard.
During the day, when chickens can see, and they have room to get away there's really no benefit to using HW cloth at a height predators could climb over.
For enclosed runs where the chickens may not all be able to move away far enough, fast enough, HW cloth is necessary. But an open situation allows for 2x4 holes. Hope I worded that in a way that makes sense.

When my chickens see any kind of ground predator approaching (including giant bugs / horror leaves) someone will sound the alarm and they all skedaddle. They have room to skedaddle without slowing each other down and can avoid the fences.
Aerial predators are their biggest threat, but thankfully our crows harry the hawks away.

If I was going to spend more on exterior fencing, it would be to add another foot or two to the height. Most of the chickens are contained just fine, but some are better fliers and may hop over. This is more common when they are juveniles or pullets just coming into lay (the worst for hoppage).

Ground predators are capable of climbing fences... the options for that include a strand of hot wire, a guardian dog, or observant human presence (our situation). We also have a 2 stage fence, inner and outer yard, so that is more intimidating to a climbing critter.

We still use HW cloth on all coop openings, and the run for young chicks off the big brooder.

How tall would you recommend the fence to be, espt to prevent hopping over?

 

[StinkyAcres]

Where did you put the hot wire? On the outside middle and top? Or closer to the bottom? Trying to figure out what you're looking for I keep out with the hot wire.

I put one down low, maybe 6-10" off the ground (mainly for dogs/ foxes) and one at the top to deter climbing predators.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Here is one of those threads showing photos of larger animals tearing hardware cloth that Rosemary mentioned. There are others.

Dog Vs. Hardware cloth... | BackYard Chickens - Learn How to Raise Chickens

No one fencing material is perfect. Different ones will stop different things. In all of them your connections are important. It doesn't matter what you use if a critter can pull it loose from the framing. The gauge of the wire is important also. Light gauge wire can be torn or stretched to create openings.

Chicken wire will stop some critters but the holes may be big enough that a snake, mouse, rat, weasel or such can get through. A baby chick may be able to walk out through it. Chicken wire is typically very light gauge so many critters can tear or stretch it. I do not consider chicken wire a safe choice.

Hardware cloth has smaller openings so it will keep out many smaller critters. It comes in different gauges so some is easier to tear than others. It's not a bad choice if you can afford it but some larger critters like a big boar raccoon or a big dog can get through it if they try.

Welded wire typically comes with 2" x 3" or 2" x 4" openings. It is generally heavy gauge so it should stop big dogs and such but the openings are big enough for smaller critters to get through. 2x4 welded wire is what I use for my main run fencing.

I also have a roughly 45' x 65' section enclosed in electric netting. This is different from electric fencing. With netting the horizontal runs are hot wires and the soil is the ground. If something touches both ground and hot wires at the same time they get shocked. It is extremely effective against most ground based predators like raccoon, fox, dog, coyote, bobcat and many others but it does nothing for flying predators. It has fairly large openings. Baby chicks up to 7 weeks old can hop up off of the soil and through an opening without getting shocked as it never touches the ground and hot wire at the same time. Fur and feathers can insulate the animal from shock but the soles of the feet and the face (especially tongue or nose) are bare and usually result in a shock. Although there are ways electric netting can be defeated it seldom is.

Electric fencing is basically hot wires strung horizontally with the soil as the ground. It is extremely efficient at keeping horses, cattle, sheep and such contained but pretty horrible at keeping predators out. The way we use it for chickens is to put up a mesh fence to keep the chickens in and most predators out. Using insulators string hot wires along the outside of the fence and use the soil and the metal wire mesh fence as a ground. That's about as effective a predator fence as you can get.

One downside of electric netting or electric fence is that they can be shorted out. That might be trash blowing up against the fence and getting wet but is often weeds and grass growing up into the fence and shorting it out. They require maintenance.

Critters like raccoons, foxes, bobcats, and coyotes can climb mesh fences. Or they can jump really high. Properly applied electricity will stop that. Another trick is to install a section if mesh fencing at the top that leans out at a 45 degree angle so they have to climb upside down for a bit. That is hard to do. I still do not consider any run open at the top as 100% predator safe but can be very predator resistant.

How high does the fence have to be to keep your chickens from flying out? Bantams usually have no problems flying up to roosts in trees 15 feet high or more. Full-sized fowl can often get up to 8 to 10 feet if they want to. Some of that depends on how overweight they are. My chickens easily fly up to my roosts that are 5 feet high but are contained by my electric netting that is only 4 feet high. They don't want to fly out so they generally don't.

One trick is to give them plenty of room. When I configure my electric netting if I create long narrow corridors they fly out. A low ranking hen cannot walk past a higher ranking hen without intruding on her personal space so she might get attacked. Or a hen has trouble getting away from an amorous rooster. They get pinned against the fence and go vertical to get away. This happens a lot when I have immature cockerels in there and they go through their dominance fights. But if I avoid narrow corridors or sharp corners I avoid the majority of these problems.

Another potential problem is that they love to perch. If your fence top is a rail that looks like a good perching spot they may fly up there to perch. Once up there they could fly down on either side. So try to have mesh fencing sticking up and not a rail for good perching. It can make a world of difference.

Anthe potential problem is that critters can dig under a fence or maybe just push through really tiny gaps underneath. A low electric wire may stop that or you can use aprons. Aprons are wire mesh panels 12" to 24" wide laid on the ground outside of your fence and attached to the bottom of the fence so nothing can squeeze through. The idea is that they go up to the fence, start to dig, hit the mesh, and do not know to back up. They are extremely effective.

That's a brief summary of chicken fencing from my point of view. Hopefully you or someone got something useful out of it. Good luck!

 

[Wildheartsfarm]

Here is one of those threads showing photos of larger animals tearing hardware cloth that Rosemary mentioned. There are others.

Dog Vs. Hardware cloth... | BackYard Chickens - Learn How to Raise Chickens

No one fencing material is perfect. Different ones will stop different things. In all of them your connections are important. It doesn't matter what you use if a critter can pull it loose from the framing. The gauge of the wire is important also. Light gauge wire can be torn or stretched to create openings.

Chicken wire will stop some critters but the holes may be big enough that a snake, mouse, rat, weasel or such can get through. A baby chick may be able to walk out through it. Chicken wire is typically very light gauge so many critters can tear or stretch it. I do not consider chicken wire a safe choice.

Hardware cloth has smaller openings so it will keep out many smaller critters. It comes in different gauges so some is easier to tear than others. It's not a bad choice if you can afford it but some larger critters like a big boar raccoon or a big dog can get through it if they try.

Welded wire typically comes with 2" x 3" or 2" x 4" openings. It is generally heavy gauge so it should stop big dogs and such but the openings are big enough for smaller critters to get through. 2x4 welded wire is what I use for my main run fencing.

I also have a roughly 45' x 65' section enclosed in electric netting. This is different from electric fencing. With netting the horizontal runs are hot wires and the soil is the ground. If something touches both ground and hot wires at the same time they get shocked. It is extremely effective against most ground based predators like raccoon, fox, dog, coyote, bobcat and many others but it does nothing for flying predators. It has fairly large openings. Baby chicks up to 7 weeks old can hop up off of the soil and through an opening without getting shocked as it never touches the ground and hot wire at the same time. Fur and feathers can insulate the animal from shock but the soles of the feet and the face (especially tongue or nose) are bare and usually result in a shock. Although there are ways electric netting can be defeated it seldom is.

Electric fencing is basically hot wires strung horizontally with the soil as the ground. It is extremely efficient at keeping horses, cattle, sheep and such contained but pretty horrible at keeping predators out. The way we use it for chickens is to put up a mesh fence to keep the chickens in and most predators out. Using insulators string hot wires along the outside of the fence and use the soil and the metal wire mesh fence as a ground. That's about as effective a predator fence as you can get.

One downside of electric netting or electric fence is that they can be shorted out. That might be trash blowing up against the fence and getting wet but is often weeds and grass growing up into the fence and shorting it out. They require maintenance.

Critters like raccoons, foxes, bobcats, and coyotes can climb mesh fences. Or they can jump really high. Properly applied electricity will stop that. Another trick is to install a section if mesh fencing at the top that leans out at a 45 degree angle so they have to climb upside down for a bit. That is hard to do. I still do not consider any run open at the top as 100% predator safe but can be very predator resistant.

How high does the fence have to be to keep your chickens from flying out? Bantams usually have no problems flying up to roosts in trees 15 feet high or more. Full-sized fowl can often get up to 8 to 10 feet if they want to. Some of that depends on how overweight they are. My chickens easily fly up to my roosts that are 5 feet high but are contained by my electric netting that is only 4 feet high. They don't want to fly out so they generally don't.

One trick is to give them plenty of room. When I configure my electric netting if I create long narrow corridors they fly out. A low ranking hen cannot walk past a higher ranking hen without intruding on her personal space so she might get attacked. Or a hen has trouble getting away from an amorous rooster. They get pinned against the fence and go vertical to get away. This happens a lot when I have immature cockerels in there and they go through their dominance fights. But if I avoid narrow corridors or sharp corners I avoid the majority of these problems.

Another potential problem is that they love to perch. If your fence top is a rail that looks like a good perching spot they may fly up there to perch. Once up there they could fly down on either side. So try to have mesh fencing sticking up and not a rail for good perching. It can make a world of difference.

Anthe potential problem is that critters can dig under a fence or maybe just push through really tiny gaps underneath. A low electric wire may stop that or you can use aprons. Aprons are wire mesh panels 12" to 24" wide laid on the ground outside of your fence and attached to the bottom of the fence so nothing can squeeze through. The idea is that they go up to the fence, start to dig, hit the mesh, and do not know to back up. They are extremely effective.

That's a brief summary of chicken fencing from my point of view. Hopefully you or someone got something useful out of it. Good luck!

This is wonderful, thank you!! In your opinion, does the apron need to be hardware cloth?