BDutch's bantam flock & natural breeding projects #5 🪺 🪺 and #6

[Shadrach]

Katrientje and Pearl are not a real problem. I overreacted on these two.
But Janice really is a no go. If I take extra eggs away from the nest or want to see how many eggs have hatched , I don’t want to be attacked. Black and Ini mini were always friendly towards me. So I do prefer those two as broodies. But I don’t always have a choice.

We have rather different views. Most broody hens will peck at you if you disturb them on a nest. Quite right too. They're trying to hatch eggs and you/we are interfering. I had one broody only I can recall who would let me slide my hand under her body and lift her off the nest without pecking me at least once. It took 5 maybe six sittings and hatchings to gain her trust enough to do this. One of her tribe mates was the opposite, gloves and glasses job. If a broody hen doesn't object to me messing about with her eggs then I'm concerned. They need to be protective of their nests and one hopes this will lead to them being protective of the chicks.
Many people will say, the chicken doesn't really need to be agggressive, whatever that is, because we the keepers take care of their safety. But we don't, do we. We write a lot about it and say a lot about it but chickens are still dying in our care, predated in coops, in runs, ranging and free ranging, poor health care, poor diet and most of all, terrible human management.
It seems a lot of people want their chickens to be pets and that usually means total compliance with the humans wishes even though it's obvious we either don't know what we are doing or don't care.
It leaves the future of the chicken in a bit of a mess. From an independent free ranging bird able to feed themselves, defend themselves we are encouraging a preference for a short lived, over productive compliant submissive, overweight creatures that are not permitted to defend themselves and are dependant on humans who can't do it either.

I'm more then happy for a broody to peck me, even had a couple fly off the nest in full battle order. My problem, not theirs. Chickens were and many still are, domesticated, but not tame thankfully.

1 I can’t kill an animal like a cat, dog, pig, horse, chicken, rabbit, etc. I am too sensitive to manage that. I feel for them/pity them when they have a poor life, like I feel/pity humans who have a poor life.

As a kid I wanted to become a vet to cure sick (loved) animals. Until I realised that killing is part of the job. I was really upset when I realised a horse gets killed by a vet if he brakes a leg/ankle.

This is a problem many who keep backyard chickens find they have to deal with which often because of their upbringing, they never had to consider before. To keep chickens the way I want to keep them means one has to kill some. Chickens are closer to livestock to me until they establish a feral population. They are for most keepers whether they like viewing it in such terms or not. If one eats the produce of a creature and egg production was the reason for aquiring them (even just the eggs) then they're livestock.
Managing livestock usually involves killing other creatures. It's called farming and that is where my views come from.
This is a fundamental problem for the backyard chicken movement. They're are people who think they're keeping pets when in fact they are farming.
I don't know of any farmers/chicken keepers that enjoy killing their livestock.
If one is going to keep chickens then being able to kill one humanely is vital.
Free ranging chickens get into all sorts of scrapes. Sometimes they get so badly injured it's cruel to keep them alive.It's kinder just to put them out of their misery.

2 Cats are pets here. Very different from the cats you knew in Catalonia. Or the stray cats /restaurant cats in Greece. People here often love them as other people like dogs. Maybe like Rhib and other Caturday people?. Most cats live in the owners houses at least 50% of the time and well taken care for.

Farming and pets again. Predators pets got shot on farms. Even in the UK.
I can't see any reason why you should have to put up with someone elses cat stalking, or attacking your chickens.

 

[MaryJanet]

I'm not sure the livestock/pet dichotomy is sufficiently nuanced to represent the full diversity of animal keeping. It's simplified, but too abstracted from reality. I known goats, cows and sheep who never produced anything consumed by their attentive, loving carers. Are they pets or livestock?

 

[Shadrach]

I'm not sure the livestock/pet dichotomy is sufficiently nuanced to represent the full diversity of animal keeping. It's simplified, but too abstracted from reality. I known goats, cows and sheep who never produced anything consumed by their attentive, loving carers. Are they pets or livestock?

True, it isn't. There's a range inbetween. It's which side of the theoretical division one sits.

 

[RoyalChick]

I'm not sure the livestock/pet dichotomy is sufficiently nuanced to represent the full diversity of animal keeping. It's simplified, but too abstracted from reality. I known goats, cows and sheep who never produced anything consumed by their attentive, loving carers. Are they pets or livestock?

I agree. I find this a very simplistic approach to something more complex.
I don’t believe ‘consumption’ can be the singular distinction between a pet and livestock.
A hen that never lays and is never eaten is a pet regardless whether she has a name, is feral, or part of a barnyard or back yard flock?
If I use the fur shed from my spoiled indoor cat to make felt items that I sell on Etsy, am I farming cats?

I feel like with all relationships we should perhaps not be too fast to pigeonhole.

 

[Shadrach]

I agree. I find this a very simplistic approach to something more complex.
I don’t believe ‘consumption’ can be the singular distinction between a pet and livestock.
A hen that never lays and is never eaten is a pet regardless whether she has a name, is feral or part of a barnyard or back yard flock?
If I use the fur shed from my spoiled indoor cat to make felt items that I sell on Etsy, am I farming cats?

I feel like with all relationships we should perhaps not be too fast to pigeon hole.

If you had to make a distinction how would you describe the two, livestock and pet?

 

[fuzzi]

We have rather different views. Most broody hens will peck at you if you disturb them on a nest. Quite right too. They're trying to hatch eggs and you/we are interfering. I had one broody only I can recall who would let me slide my hand under her body and lift her off the nest without pecking me at least once. It took 5 maybe six sittings and hatchings to gain her trust enough to do this. One of her tribe mates was the opposite, gloves and glasses job. If a broody hen doesn't object to me messing about with her eggs then I'm concerned. They need to be protective of their nests and one hopes this will lead to them being protective of the chicks.
Many people will say, the chicken doesn't really need to be agggressive, whatever that is, because we the keepers take care of their safety. But we don't, do we. We write a lot about it and say a lot about it but chickens are still dying in our care, predated in coops, in runs, ranging and free ranging, poor health care, poor diet and most of all, terrible human management.
It seems a lot of people want their chickens to be pets and that usually means total compliance with the humans wishes even though it's obvious we either don't know what we are doing or don't care.
It leaves the future of the chicken in a bit of a mess. From an independent free ranging bird able to feed themselves, defend themselves we are encouraging a preference for a short lived, over productive compliant submissive, overweight creatures that are not permitted to defend themselves and are dependant on humans who can't do it either.

I'm more then happy for a broody to peck me, even had a couple fly off the nest in full battle order. My problem, not theirs. Chickens were and many still are, domesticated, but not tame thankfully.

This is a problem many who keep backyard chickens find they have to deal with which often because of their upbringing, they never had to consider before. To keep chickens the way I want to keep them means one has to kill some. Chickens are closer to livestock to me until they establish a feral population. They are for most keepers whether they like viewing it in such terms or not. If one eats the produce of a creature and egg production was the reason for aquiring them (even just the eggs) then they're livestock.
Managing livestock usually involves killing other creatures. It's called farming and that is where my views come from.
This is a fundamental problem for the backyard chicken movement. They're are people who think they're keeping pets when in fact they are farming.
I don't know of any farmers/chicken keepers that enjoy killing their livestock.
If one is going to keep chickens then being able to kill one humanely is vital.
Free ranging chickens get into all sorts of scrapes. Sometimes they get so badly injured it's cruel to keep them alive.It's kinder just to put them out of their misery.

Farming and pets again. Predators pets got shot on farms. Even in the UK.
I can't see any reason why you should have to put up with someone elses cat stalking, or attacking your chickens.

I'm a bit new to this, have only had my current flock for 14 months. Theoretically I have no issue dispatching an animal that is suffering or that is a liability. But it's a bit different having a pet euthanized by a vet versus doing it myself.

Samuel was the first chicken I personally killed, but I did it because I knew it needed to be done. I took no pleasure in it, and shed a few tears over the loss, of the waste, over the need to end a life.

If a dog or other predator were attacking my chickens I can see myself defending them, lethally if necessary. The flock is depending upon me, and I take my responsibility seriously.

Martha's learning quickly how to be a good broody. She's protective of her chicks with the other hens, but while she was on her nest she allowed me to reach underneath to check her eggs, with only a light peck on my hand. When I am in the run she comes over and pecks my skirt, looks me in the eye, and I respond by sprinkling some crumbles for her chicks...which apparently is what she is trying to communicate.

There's some degree of understanding there. I'm not saying she's my friend, but we seem to be working in tandem for the chicks' benefit.

 

[BDutch]

This is a problem many who keep backyard chickens find they have to deal with which often because of their upbringing,

Maybe you are right that many chickens are too domesticated. But Janice pecked me so hard it hurt for few days. I prefer my chickens to be friendly. They are not my pets to cuddle. But I don’t like Janices mean (when broody) and shy character.
My chickens do not live in natural circumstances and when their behaviour becomes too wild (nesting outside the coop/sleeping in trees) I choose to correct them.

Not being able to kill animals has nothing to do with my upbringing. The opposite is true. I was brought up on a farm and witnessed slaughtering (for our own use/freezer). Found it awful, avoided it if I knew it was going to happen. As a kid I would hide in the clothes closet to not hear the screaming pig.
Hated my brother for being cruel. He didn’t mind to chop of the head of a chicken and let the animal run around without its head. Once I was really pissed at him when we had chicks. One chick didnt get slong with the rest because it was weaker. I asked my brother how I could help it. Next thing my brother did, was take the poor chick out of the group and throw it against the wall.

Can you imagine that I cried as a teenager when the grown pigs were send on transport and I heard them cry.
I accused my father for being heartless to have an occupation like his. I just couldn’t understand why he liked his profession.
As soon as I left home I became a vegetarian. My father and mother understood my choice. My brother found it ridiculous.

 

[BDutch]

To keep chickens the way I want to keep them means one has to kill some.

Having to kill a chicken if one gets badly hurt or miserable with pain is something I never dealt with. But I did investigate the possibilities if I ever have to.

We are all different and make our own choices what we want to do with the animals we keep. Often the choice of the kind of chicken we buy and keep says a lot.

Some chicken keepers go mainly for egg production (laying hybrids) , other for meat (broilers), many like both (dual purpose/heavy egg layers).
Some have chickens for pets (silkies, cochins …).
Some to show off (ornamental breeders, heritage breeders and developers of new breeds).
+ There are harder to point out categories like your preference to care for rescued chickens and observe flock/tribe behaviour.

I like my chickens to enjoy life, but also like to eat eggs from happy chickens. The choice for bantams is related to the space they have. I have been looking for a bantam chicken breed that is known for laying during winter too. Because I don't like to buy eggs in the shop from animals that have a poor life. And like to eat eggs/food with eggs the whole year. I don’t even like it to buy products with eggs from poorly kept chickens in it. But making everything myself from my own eggs is too complicated. To skip eating supermarket products is too inconvenient. My life is big dilemma. Enjoying an easy and beautiful life is not possible without animal abuse and doing harm to the environment. But at least I think about it and even feel guilty going to a beautiful island with a plane, I feel guilty buying the wrong eggs, because the small supermarket here has no organic eggs and I like to eat an egg with breakfast tomorrow.
Life is too difficult and complicated. And discussing it. In writing is not easy either.

 

[ManueB]

It leaves the future of the chicken in a bit of a mess. From an independent free ranging bird able to feed themselves, defend themselves we are encouraging a preference for a short lived, over productive compliant submissive, overweight creatures that are not permitted to defend themselves and are dependant on humans who can't do it either.

@BDutch may prefer a docile broody but it doesn't seem her chickens are either overweight or unhealthy. They have not been able to defend themselves from predators, maybe, although loosing chicks to predators would happen in nature too.
I don't mind hostile broodies or chickens and the two hens that sat here are some of the most unfriendly to humans, but unfortunately I have not been able to keep all my chickens healthy.
I don't think there is a correlation between the two, or at least it's a bit of a shortcut.

If you had to make a distinction how would you describe the two, livestock and pet?

That's a question I struggle with.
I don't think the species defined the category.
I suppose one criteria could be if you try to make a good life and keep in health an animal that isn't productive anymore.

Not being able to kill animals has nothing to do with my upbringing. The opposite is true

I have seen a few older people here have a similar reaction. A 65 years old friend of my partner who grew up on a farm started raising highland cows a few years ago on his land because his children asked him. They are putting an end to it, he discovered he can't bear that the calves he helped birth and tended to, are sold at the slaughterhouse for meat. His wife who also grew up on a farm has had the same reaction. They are now keeping the adult cows just to graze the land until they die. Pet or livestock ?
I am very tempted to stop keeping chickens once all of ours pass. It is too much of a dilemma for me to know what is right.

 

[BDutch]

@MaryJanet , @RoyalChick and @fuzzi , thanks for your replies too. I come back with my replies later.