Belgian Watermaal

[KristenG]

Adding a bit more on combs to help others know what to look for. This first is a Quail Watermaal pullet 4-months. Her spikes are clearly developed already even though her comb is not fully developed. You will only get the desirable long spikes on developed combs if the babies combs have defined spikes.

If the spikes are not clearly defined at day one, and sometimes even if they are, you can end up getting faults, such as short spikes, a weak spikes, or a partially fused spike like in the below 4-month old blue quail cockerel (middle and the bird’s left spike are partially fused):

And in younger birds, notice the presence of three elongated spikes on the back of this 8 week old quail Watermaal pullet’s combs:

It’s okay is they are a little shorter, but I wouldn’t want them much shorter than the spikes on this 9-week old black Watermaal pullet’s comb:

And I am disappointed in this Silver quail cockerels comb, where the single spike (or tiny fused double) on the end is smaller or the same as the rest of the comb texture - he is 8 weeks old and also has a very small tassel. At this age I would not keep any birds with a smaller tassel than this:

And finally, this is a quail male with a triple spike but he has 2 side sprigs (they are the equivalent of side sprigs, though on rose combs these might be considered large texture). It almost looks like an additional spike, but it is not on the back end of the comb and is not inherited like a spike. The second one is concealed on the birds right (photo’s left) under tassel feathers. I like how small this comb is and how it lacks wrinkles. I would like it to be squared off in the front. I would prefer it not have the sprigs, but overall this is a strong comb on a 4-month-old

 

[CastielH]

Adding a bit more on combs to help others know what to look for. This first is a Quail Watermaal pullet 4-months. Her spikes are clearly developed already even though her comb is not fully developed. You will only get the desirable long spikes on developed combs if the babies combs have defined spikes.
View attachment 3592346
If the spikes are not clearly defined at day one, and sometimes even if they are, you can end up getting faults, such as short spikes, a weak spikes, or a partially fused spike like in the below 4-month old blue quail cockerel (middle and the bird’s left spike are partially fused):
View attachment 3592348
And in younger birds, notice the presence of three elongated spikes on the back of this 8 week old quail Watermaal pullet’s combs:

View attachment 3592349
It’s okay is they are a little shorter, but I wouldn’t want them much shorter than the spikes on this 9-week old black Watermaal pullet’s comb:
View attachment 3592351
And I am disappointed in this Silver quail cockerels comb, where the single spike (or tiny fused double) on the end is smaller or the same as the rest of the comb texture - he is 8 weeks old and also has a very small tassel. At this age I would not keep any birds with a smaller tassel than this:
View attachment 3592353
View attachment 3592354
And finally, this is a quail male with a triple spike but he has 2 side sprigs (they are the equivalent of side sprigs, though on rose combs these might be considered large texture). It almost looks like an additional spike, but it is not on the back end of the comb and is not inherited like a spike. The second one is concealed on the birds right (photo’s left) under tassel feathers. I like how small this comb is and how it lacks wrinkles. I would like it to be squared off in the front. I would prefer it not have the sprigs, but overall this is a strong comb on a 4-month-old
View attachment 3592356

Thank you so much for your posts! These are all great visuals for what we should be looking for. I'm really glad you mentioned the tassel size because that's something I've started looking at with my birds as I evaluate them. Both of the males I'm for sure keeping have correct tassels but I only ended up with three pullets from my hatch two of whom have crests and one who is crestless, in your opinion is there a strong reason to only use the pullet without a tassel or given that both cockerels have tassels do you think it could work for at least a first generation to pick more girls from? My knockoff d'Anvers has the best body out of all three pullets so I'm planning to keep her regardless. Here's one of my other girls just so you can get an idea of what I'm working with, my birds are about 16 weeks if that helps.

 

[KristenG]

Thank you so much for your posts! These are all great visuals for what we should be looking for. I'm really glad you mentioned the tassel size because that's something I've started looking at with my birds as I evaluate them. Both of the males I'm for sure keeping have correct tassels but I only ended up with three pullets from my hatch two of whom have crests and one who is crestless, in your opinion is there a strong reason to only use the pullet without a tassel or given that both cockerels have tassels do you think it could work for at least a first generation to pick more girls from? My knockoff d'Anvers has the best body out of all three pullets so I'm planning to keep her regardless. Here's one of my other girls just so you can get an idea of what I'm working with, my birds are about 16 weeks if that helps. View attachment 3592669

You’re welcome!
The tassel is a dominant gene with accessory modifiers. Any time you breed a non-tasseled bird to a tasseled one, the result is generally a smaller, heterozygous tassel in the chicks. If you are working with moderate to large tassel sizes in your homozygous birds, this can be a great option if you want to reduce tassel size immediately in the next generation for showing. Long term breeders are ideally going to be smaller homozygous tassels though, because you don’t want to be perpetuating huge tassels. The only way you can effectively select against against huge homozygous tassels is by breeding from homozygous birds. But, in a pinch, you can use a non tasseled birds.

There is something else you want to be cautious of, however. The gene for the triple Spiked Rose come is linked to the tassel. Generally birds that do not inherit the tassel will not inherit a triple spike grows comb and will contribute nothing to future generations on that front. Thus, the tasseled bird you use must have a very strong triple - especially if you are to breed it to a non-tasseled, single spiked bird. Triple spikes more easily express in the male than the female - so you can think about this in a couple ways. 1. A female with a triple spike will more potently pass on genes for triple spiked combs than a similarly spiked male m. And 2. You should be less lenient on the combs of the males than females. Double spiked females often have triple spiked genes, but double spiked males or worse are going to give you a lot of trouble down the road.

Finally, avoid short or nonexistent spikes entirely if you can. It is better to use a single spikes rose comb than a comb with no spikes. This is because no spikes can indicate the bird Carries one copy of pea comb, or Carries an obnoxious gene that eliminates the spikes and is incredibly difficult to eliminate from your flock.

So, long story short, yes. You can use them and still get properly tasseled chicks. Just be sure you are also looking at those combs!

 

[KristenG]

Thank you so much for your posts! These are all great visuals for what we should be looking for. I'm really glad you mentioned the tassel size because that's something I've started looking at with my birds as I evaluate them. Both of the males I'm for sure keeping have correct tassels but I only ended up with three pullets from my hatch two of whom have crests and one who is crestless, in your opinion is there a strong reason to only use the pullet without a tassel or given that both cockerels have tassels do you think it could work for at least a first generation to pick more girls from? My knockoff d'Anvers has the best body out of all three pullets so I'm planning to keep her regardless. Here's one of my other girls just so you can get an idea of what I'm working with, my birds are about 16 weeks if that helps. View attachment 3592669

And, I forgot to mention, the tassel on this white bird you posted is nearly perfect. Hopefully this is a homozygous tassel and hopefully there is a triple spike there. So cute, thanks for sharing!

 

[CastielH]

And, I forgot to mention, the tassel on this white bird you posted is nearly perfect. Hopefully this is a homozygous tassel and hopefully there is a triple spike there. So cute, thanks for sharing!

She has what looks to be three spike buds but we’ll see when she gets a bit closer to laying! Thank you again for all your advice I really appreciate it.

 

[Amer]

They’re so pretty! How old are they now?

I’m having a terrible time trying to determine gender on these chickens! They mature very slowly and I don’t see obvious saddle feathers like other breeds. Some of them are pretty obvious based on comb color and size, but mine are 12 weeks old and only a couple are red enough to see as obvious. My d’Anvers are so much more obvious and the Ameraucanas have saddle feathers by 10 weeks.

My lavender is a boy, but also has the wrong comb it’s straightish and pea-ish…but he has a tassel. Then I have a couple girls from Watermaal eggs without a tassel and one spike but it’s not centered on the comb Just curious if you’ve found any tricks or signs or if I just have to be patient (impatient)!

I love the quail color because my quail babies are so quick and easy to sex! I haven’t had cuckoo for a while yet, but it looks like it might turn out the same way.

Adding a bit more on combs to help others know what to look for. This first is a Quail Watermaal pullet 4-months. Her spikes are clearly developed already even though her comb is not fully developed. You will only get the desirable long spikes on developed combs if the babies combs have defined spikes.
View attachment 3592346
If the spikes are not clearly defined at day one, and sometimes even if they are, you can end up getting faults, such as short spikes, a weak spikes, or a partially fused spike like in the below 4-month old blue quail cockerel (middle and the bird’s left spike are partially fused):
View attachment 3592348
And in younger birds, notice the presence of three elongated spikes on the back of this 8 week old quail Watermaal pullet’s combs:

View attachment 3592349
It’s okay is they are a little shorter, but I wouldn’t want them much shorter than the spikes on this 9-week old black Watermaal pullet’s comb:
View attachment 3592351
And I am disappointed in this Silver quail cockerels comb, where the single spike (or tiny fused double) on the end is smaller or the same as the rest of the comb texture - he is 8 weeks old and also has a very small tassel. At this age I would not keep any birds with a smaller tassel than this:
View attachment 3592353
View attachment 3592354
And finally, this is a quail male with a triple spike but he has 2 side sprigs (they are the equivalent of side sprigs, though on rose combs these might be considered large texture). It almost looks like an additional spike, but it is not on the back end of the comb and is not inherited like a spike. The second one is concealed on the birds right (photo’s left) under tassel feathers. I like how small this comb is and how it lacks wrinkles. I would like it to be squared off in the front. I would prefer it not have the sprigs, but overall this is a strong comb on a 4-month-old
View attachment 3592356

Wow, the triple spiked comb seems like a challenge! It is certainly a unique breed trait.

 

[kurby22]

@kurby22 I am sorry to inform you that number of spikes and presence or absence of tassel are some of those things that just don’t really change from the day they hatch. Sometimes the tassels will be small but you should see the tassel feathers the same time beard feathers come in (6-8weeks). Sometimes comb spikes will develop from spike buds that are so small that you didn’t realize they were there, but many of mine I can tell at hatch (with a magnifying glass). If you cannot see them at hatch, wait about 6 weeks and check again- you will be able to see them as soon as the combs start to redden (6 weeks for the boys, or as late as 16-20 weeks for the girls). If you cannot see them by then, your bird didn’t get the right genes.

Sorry to hear about the pea comb!

Figured I’d share a few of mine
First photo is of a black Watermaal pullet- about 9 weeks old.
View attachment 3592186

This is Cobbs, one of my Quail Watermaal cocks
View attachment 3592330

Next is a Blue Quail Watermaal cockerel, about 4 months old. Ohio National 2023 is supposed to be the qualifying meet for Blue Quail Watermaal to get them admitted to the standard, so I was hoping to show him. I took an additional photo of his comb so you can see his spikes are clearly developed - though his comb is not perfect by any means.
View attachment 3592331
View attachment 3592332

Than this 4 month old quail pullet. I grabbed her because her comb is reddening and it is an example of a challenging comb. Just for the record, her tassel is bigger than I would like to see as well. She may be a bird I end up rehoming. She is very sweet though. Take a close look at her spikes, the two outer spikes are perfectly defined as they should be at this age. The middle one *IS* there, but you have to look close! Middle spike is supposed to be the longest.
View attachment 3592335
View attachment 3592337

Thank you for the examples! Your quail boy is so pretty My younger set of Watermaals definitely have better tassels but their combs are soooo slow! Might need to invest in a magnifying glass I’m in awe at how slow they mature. My d’Anvers are so much faster developmentally. I usually can tell so quickly boy/girl and even quality of comb potential.

So the question I have about failed comb and tassel…do I use them for d’Anver breeding or Watermaal breeding with a boy with a good comb? Will it work to use proper lineage in the long run or will I have better luck using her for d’Anvers?

Adding a bit more on combs to help others know what to look for. This first is a Quail Watermaal pullet 4-months. Her spikes are clearly developed already even though her comb is not fully developed. You will only get the desirable long spikes on developed combs if the babies combs have defined spikes.
View attachment 3592346
If the spikes are not clearly defined at day one, and sometimes even if they are, you can end up getting faults, such as short spikes, a weak spikes, or a partially fused spike like in the below 4-month old blue quail cockerel (middle and the bird’s left spike are partially fused):
View attachment 3592348
And in younger birds, notice the presence of three elongated spikes on the back of this 8 week old quail Watermaal pullet’s combs:

View attachment 3592349
It’s okay is they are a little shorter, but I wouldn’t want them much shorter than the spikes on this 9-week old black Watermaal pullet’s comb:
View attachment 3592351
And I am disappointed in this Silver quail cockerels comb, where the single spike (or tiny fused double) on the end is smaller or the same as the rest of the comb texture - he is 8 weeks old and also has a very small tassel. At this age I would not keep any birds with a smaller tassel than this:
View attachment 3592353
View attachment 3592354
And finally, this is a quail male with a triple spike but he has 2 side sprigs (they are the equivalent of side sprigs, though on rose combs these might be considered large texture). It almost looks like an additional spike, but it is not on the back end of the comb and is not inherited like a spike. The second one is concealed on the birds right (photo’s left) under tassel feathers. I like how small this comb is and how it lacks wrinkles. I would like it to be squared off in the front. I would prefer it not have the sprigs, but overall this is a strong comb on a 4-month-old
View attachment 3592356

This is super helpful! Thank you! So if I have a nice Watermaal in every way but the comb lacking spikes…what do I target to improve that? I have my boy with very small but visible spikes…would I use him as my only male? I haven’t seen good combs on the females (I think are females) anyway. They are about 12 weeks now so I figure even my poor eyes would see something I will have to get each one and see if I can look closer at the comb! Thanks so much!!

 

[kurby22]

So what I’m reading is that the boys with no spikes should probably be culled and my one boy with 3 spikes is best? I also have a boy d’Anver with two spikes…could he help or would he just add to the mess? The females with a nice tassel but no spikes can still be used though? I know mine were project birds, and they’re projects for me too—so I just want to know what the next best steps are :-D Plus who to cull

Here are mine at 12 weeks!

 

[KristenG]

@kurby22
I would not use any birds missing all their spikes if I had any other choice. That includes females. But that is me. I am one of the creators of the American Watermaal. I have been working with them a long time. I know that the short spike problem is a difficult issue to get away from and one that nearly every breeder who has acquired stock from descendants of my birds has struggled with even after selecting against shorter spikes for several generations. This includes me. Pictures of birds with long spikes, even if the overall comb shape is not otherwise great, is a significant achievement in a bird (with a low texture comb especially). High texture combs usually are a factor that increases the length of the spikes, but it makes the shape of the base of the comb highly irregular. If you have high texture and short spikes, that’s not much better than nonexistent spikes.

Sounds like your birds came from Green Grable. Or at least are related to them. The black watermaal that she initially used was my line. And they were very good blacks - though they carried recessive white. And sometimes struggled with spike length. She used those to create Mottled by breeding mottled d’Anvers in. But then, when she out crossed to Ameraucana to get self blue and lavender mottled, she introduced the pea comb gene. This causes a second set of issues getting the proper length, and number of spikes, or even the simple presence of spikes. Given the nature of this pernicious fault, I wouldn’t touch any birds that have short or absent spikes. I would use a D’Anvers in preference to that. Otherwise you’re gonna be culling up to 90% of your hatch every year. For years! That is what I had to do with my watermaals to get the spike length back.

A D’Anvers with a double spike comb is an interesting characteristic. This bird would probably not contribute a lot, since his comb spike genes are likely to be linked to the same chromosome as his non-tassel genes. That said, it’s not an issue to have that double spike in a Watermaal breeding pen. Should crossover occur, he probably would give you better luck with the proper spike number in your tasseled birds. and certainly this may be a better option than using birds with no spikes.

The wrong number of spikes is of lesser consequence. I believe double spikes by hens breed similarly to triple spiked hens. In the overseas standards for watermaals, anything between two and four spikes is acceptable for show. I have a little doubt that those birds are also used in breeding. However, like I said, before, triple spiked females are your most potent breeding assets. If you must breed to a single spikes bird, let it be a triple spiked female to an inferior spiked male. And when you get your lines up to snuff, don’t tolerate anything less than a triple in your boys.

Start where you are with what you have. Anything I say is simply a guideline. My standards are going to be different from yours because my birds have a different level of quality and they have different types of faults that I am focusing on.so go with what suites your population and preferences. Just remember that any fault you permit, you have to ask yourself if you’re OK dealing with large numbers of chicks that sport it down the line. Choose the faults of birds that you are most ok dealing with. Overtime you will learn which characters are the hardest to get rid of in your line. A smart breeder will cull harder against the more stubborn faults. And remember, when you’re just starting, you have a very small pool of birds. While you will get a lot of variation in the young, it is the average qualities of young that is the most difficult to change. The particular birds you choose to use at the very first pairing have a profound impact on the direction and potential of your line. If you choose to use certain types of faulty birds now, they will haunt you for years. Even when you hatch chicks that have the proper length and number of spikes, you’ll continue to hatch similar proportions of the original faults for some time (as long as 5-10 years, or more!) due to the complex number of genes involved.

In general principle, you should want to call hardest against the faults that are most predominant. And against the ones that are the most difficult to eliminate. Number of spikes, easy to moderately difficult to correct. Presence or absence of a tassel, very easy. Size of tassel, easy to moderate. Length of spikes and absence of spikes, difficult!

Hope this helps.

 

[kurby22]

@kurby22
I would not use any birds missing all their spikes if I had any other choice. That includes females. But that is me. I am one of the creators of the American Watermaal. I have been working with them a long time. I know that the short spike problem is a difficult issue to get away from and one that nearly every breeder who has acquired stock from descendants of my birds has struggled with even after selecting against shorter spikes for several generations. This includes me. Pictures of birds with long spikes, even if the overall comb shape is not otherwise great, is a significant achievement in a bird (with a low texture comb especially). High texture combs usually are a factor that increases the length of the spikes, but it makes the shape of the base of the comb highly irregular. If you have high texture and short spikes, that’s not much better than nonexistent spikes.

Sounds like your birds came from Green Grable. Or at least are related to them. The black watermaal that she initially used was my line. And they were very good blacks - though they carried recessive white. And sometimes struggled with spike length. She used those to create Mottled by breeding mottled d’Anvers in. But then, when she out crossed to Ameraucana to get self blue and lavender mottled, she introduced the pea comb gene. This causes a second set of issues getting the proper length, and number of spikes, or even the simple presence of spikes. Given the nature of this pernicious fault, I wouldn’t touch any birds that have short or absent spikes. I would use a D’Anvers in preference to that. Otherwise you’re gonna be culling up to 90% of your hatch every year. For years! That is what I had to do with my watermaals to get the spike length back.

A D’Anvers with a double spike comb is an interesting characteristic. This bird would probably not contribute a lot, since his comb spike genes are likely to be linked to the same chromosome as his non-tassel genes. That said, it’s not an issue to have that double spike in a Watermaal breeding pen. Should crossover occur, he probably would give you better luck with the proper spike number in your tasseled birds. and certainly this may be a better option than using birds with no spikes.

The wrong number of spikes is of lesser consequence. I believe double spikes by hens breed similarly to triple spiked hens. In the overseas standards for watermaals, anything between two and four spikes is acceptable for show. I have a little doubt that those birds are also used in breeding. However, like I said, before, triple spiked females are your most potent breeding assets. If you must breed to a single spikes bird, let it be a triple spiked female to an inferior spiked male. And when you get your lines up to snuff, don’t tolerate anything less than a triple in your boys.

Start where you are with what you have. Anything I say is simply a guideline. My standards are going to be different from yours because my birds have a different level of quality and they have different types of faults that I am focusing on.so go with what suites your population and preferences. Just remember that any fault you permit, you have to ask yourself if you’re OK dealing with large numbers of chicks that sport it down the line. Choose the faults of birds that you are most ok dealing with. Overtime you will learn which characters are the hardest to get rid of in your line. A smart breeder will cull harder against the more stubborn faults. And remember, when you’re just starting, you have a very small pool of birds. While you will get a lot of variation in the young, it is the average qualities of young that is the most difficult to change. The particular birds you choose to use at the very first pairing have a profound impact on the direction and potential of your line. If you choose to use certain types of faulty birds now, they will haunt you for years. Even when you hatch chicks that have the proper length and number of spikes, you’ll continue to hatch similar proportions of the original faults for some time (as long as 5-10 years, or more!) due to the complex number of genes involved.

In general principle, you should want to call hardest against the faults that are most predominant. And against the ones that are the most difficult to eliminate. Number of spikes, easy to moderately difficult to correct. Presence or absence of a tassel, very easy. Size of tassel, easy to moderate. Length of spikes and absence of spikes, difficult!

Hope this helps.

This is fantastic and super helpful, thank you for taking the time to really go into the details @KristenG! I will have to save this and read it and re-read it to make sure it sinks in. I knew you had created them so I knew your knowledge would be extensive!

You are correct, I did get my birds by way of Red Roof Hens who got hers via Green Grables. So the pea comb on the lavender makes sense knowing she used Ameraucanas. She also I believe used Ameraucanas to improve temperament since some of hers were a bit aggressive. At least that is what I was told! Seems like it will be a slow and laborious process haha. These rose combs are a pain in the butt it seems I really love their personalities so that makes it much easier and more fun to tolerate the frustrating aspects! Although it is harder to cull when they’re so personable!