Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[CharlieVoda]

I'm hoping somebody here can help me (I think you probably can, you folks seem to have answers to everything I've asked thus far). =)


A few weeks ago, I ran across a crazy-gorgeous breed of chicken (online). Unfortunately, our ISP was having "cable constipation" or something, and we lost internet...as I came across this bird. Needless to say I was frustrated...but I figured I'd get over it and find something else I liked. Well I can't get that blasted bird out of my head and I have very little information about it....ONLY info that comes from the 1 (and only one) picture I saw.....so I can't even tell you if the bird I saw was an accurate representation of the breed as a whole.

Clues:

It had a very similar coloring to the spangled russian orloff in regard to the rich mahogany with splashes of white and darker colors.
It had a very similar stature as the Russian roosters we see today from other countries (not the ones here) - very vertical, regal, massive looking chicken
It looked larger than your average large fowl chicken in the picture (but I can't say for sure if it is or not)
It had some sort of name that one would usually relate to a human being. Like... Thomas so-and-so or maybe Mr. so-and-so (for some reason Mister sticks in my mind but when I google Mr. Chicken and Mister Chicken nothing comes up remotely related to chicken breeds (which I figured would happen) but I know the name of the bird was some sort of *person's* name which is weird.

The name might have been the name of the person who owned the chicken and not the chicken breed, but I don't think so...it was captioned like "such-and-such chicken"

Thank you in advance for any guessers willing to help me.


And YES I think this would qualify as a heritage breed if it's really a breed according to the APA because the picture itself looked pretty old (depending on whether or not the picture was actually taken in the US and I don't know that either)

Also - it was *not* the speckled sussex or the jubilee orpington or anything else that is a "common to everyone" breed....it had a really weird name for a chicken all things considered. Albert something? Robert something? GAH I don't remember.

I even tried googling "chicken breeds with people names" and that didn't amount to anything. lol!

[Edited to add] I suppose it's possible this bird isn't even a chicken, but it definitely looked like a chicken, just taller and bigger.

You may be thinking of MR. Silkie!!!!! Bob can explain a Mister Silkie.
Or perhaps it was in the tread below
~*Mr. Chicken 2010 Contest!*~ The Winners Are Anoinced!!!

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/423431/mr-chicken-2010-contest-the-winners-are-anoinced

Good luck with the birds
Charlie

 

[3riverschick]

my answers in bold.

In getting caught up on 3 days of posts I saw the info. about 170 some of these breeds being in dire situations re: poss. complete loss.


?1.)ex: Would 1 breeding pair or trio actually make any difference? Yes it would.
or another way to put the question -- what is the SMALLEST # of birds (or Cocks & Hens) of a breed that one could maintain in order to be making a contribution to _maintaining_ (not nec. improving, just preserve what is) the breed as is right now (ie to keep things from getting worse, prevent total loss).
You're presuming you are it it all alone in your chosen breed. That's not so. The answer is a trio would be fine as long as the two sexes were far apart genetically in your chosen breeders breeding program so that you could breed them together for several generations (rolling mating).

?2.)If one were to try to at least keep what is (maintain/preserve) w/ a hope at improvement toward SOP which style of breeding (Spiral, Rolling, other?) would allow the fewest number of birds in order to be helpful in keeping that breed from vanishing.
Rolling mating. Because you only need to establish one line. It's the rolling method and the selective culling which maintains diversity.

?3.)If the goal is to maintain some birds from a breed on the brink of total loss, is there anything pro/con of sourcing initial stock from more than one source if possible?
Unless you have breed type and [plumage color down pat, very often more harm than god is done by sourcing multiple origins for a foundation flock.
FeyRaine

Folk who want to help save endangered breeds don't have to go It alone. Why not pick a breed, then find a breeder of top quality birds within that breed? Find someone who thinks the same way you do. become an off-shoot of their breeding program. Raise birds for him/her. Get to know the strain. Then get a trio and follow the breeder reccomendations for breeding the 1st 3 years as you get used to handling the strain. Follow the breeder's wishes on how to dispose of culls. This kind of arrangement is so valuable to the veteran breeder and the breed. It gives the veteran breeder another source for his stock. if you live 500 miles away from the veteran breeder, your stock may eventually become far enough genetically that you can trade birds back and forth. If the veteran breeder has a flock tragedy, you're there to help him/her repopulate. What I am saying is you needn't fret about going it alone. Become an associate of a veteran breeder. Each one teach one. Easier for you, a valuable association for the veteran breeder. You may even eventually beat him/her in the ring.
Best,
Karen

 

[CluckyCharms]

You may be thinking of MR. Silkie!!!!! Bob can explain a Mister Silkie.
Or perhaps it was in the tread below
~*Mr. Chicken 2010 Contest!*~ The Winners Are Anoinced!!!

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/423431/mr-chicken-2010-contest-the-winners-are-anoinced

Good luck with the birds
Charlie

I have no idea what a Mr. Silkie is but yes, I would be most interested to find out! I went through all 23 pages of that thread and there are some gorgeous birds there, but none of them look like the one I saw and I didn't see any Mr. Silkies. A couple of Silkies and a Silkie mix of some sort though. =] The one I saw was definitely not a Silkie so I'm thinking this is some sort of ongoing joke - can't wait to be filled in? lol

I don't think I'm ever going to know what it was unless I come across it again, but I still think it was a chicken breed with a person's name...for now I'm going to settle for some sort of Aseel cross.

 

[CharlieVoda]

In getting caught up on 3 days of posts I saw the info. about 170 some of these breeds being in dire situations re: poss. complete loss.

I knew it was that bad a decade or so ago, but I was (mistakenly) under the impression that since keeping chickens has come back into popularity,
and so many mag. articles etc. have promoted the rare breeds that things had improved. It feels like a gut punch to learn that *so many* are still
right there on the brink of total loss.

In light of how dire the situation is, could some of the more knowledgeable folks on this thread give some sort of "Do No Harm, & yet help keep something from total loss guidlines".
I mean specifically, if one of us newbie types found stock worth keeping and just wanted to help by keeping that stock alive for a few more years what would the best course of action be?

I saw the advice for novices to stick to solid color birds to learn type first, so that is a specific pointer on how to help w/ less chance of messing up.

But what else is would be the best course of action for those w/ the desire to help, limited resources in terms of # of birds to keep, & not (yet) a real breeders knowhow on breeding.

?1.)ex: Would 1 breeding pair or trio actually make any difference?
or another way to put the question -- what is the SMALLEST # of birds (or Cocks & Hens) of a breed that one could maintain in order to be making a contribution to _maintaining_ (not nec. improving, just preserve what is) the breed as is right now (ie to keep things from getting worse, prevent total loss).

?2.)If one were to try to at least keep what is (maintain/preserve) w/ a hope at improvement toward SOP which style of breeding (Spiral, Rolling, other?) would allow the fewest number of birds in order to be helpful in keeping that breed from vanishing.

?3.)If the goal is to maintain some birds from a breed on the brink of total loss, is there anything pro/con of sourcing initial stock from more than one source if possible?

I'm hearing that people w/o a clue on how to breed are likely to do more harm that good in trying to maintain these breeds & I'm trying to figure out how to get around that in some way favorable to the survival of the max. # of breeds. B/C from the sound of it these breeds can't really wait for all of us newbies to get 20 yrs breeding practice, they will mostly be gone by then

That & I'm now feeling rather remiss that I didn't go ahead and get started 10-15 yrs ago when I first became aware of the overall loss of heritage breeds.
(hoping better late than never is not, in fact, too late)
FeyRaine

You could start with a trio and build up a small flock from there.
I would say 3 to 5 males and 9 to 15 females. I think you could pen breed these and raise say 15 to 25 birds annually and cull and replace some of the older birds keeping the number of breeders about the same every year and maintain the genetics. You would probably want to run 2 pens of breeders to spread out the genetics longer. Even if the birds scored say 85 to 92 points according to the SOP it would keep the genetics alive and provide stock to potential breeders.

I am hoping Bob, Walt, Chris09, NYREDS, Buffalogal, heritagehabitatfarms, Kathyinmo, cgmcrary and many others with some experience will chime in here. I do not believe we have 20 more years to wait we need people to try now even if they are inexperienced. We all make mistakes along the way. However in reality, what do we have to loose if we try. This is what heritage large fowl breeds are all about and a large part of why Bob started this thread the way I see things.

Good Luck with the birds
Charlie

 

[Lacy Blues]

Who knows... maybe someone will be a "natural" and do extremely well with their rare breed. Of course, they'll have to be dedicated enough to do their homework and hopefully get some contacts for mentors. It won't come by osmosis, it will be a lot of work, even if they are "naturals."

 

[3riverschick]

I have no idea what a Mr. Silkie is but yes, I would be most interested to find out! ......I'm thinking this is some sort of ongoing joke - can't wait to be filled in? lol

Hi Clucky,
Mr. Silkie is a pet chicken. As in, They call me "Mr. Silkie". I think the joke is that Walt said he would never own a Silkie and now he actually owns one, which they use as kinda a poultry comedy relief . There are ongoing jokes about him here on the thread. the veteran breeders, especially, use him that way. Least that's the way I understand it.
Best,
Karen

 

[FeyRaine]

Karen & Charlie,

Thanks for your specific answers.

I certainly would hope I was far from alone in preservation efforts. My tone was b/c I sincerely thought the situation had been turned around in the past decade so I'm just kind of stunned atm to find out the cold hard facts. Also, I'm just a natural "creative problem solver" kind of thinker so I jumped right into trying to figure out how to match up the excitement I see all over BYC w/ the puzzle of saving breeds when most ppl really don't care about SOPs or genetic traits etc etc. So that is why I got focused on what is the smallest act that someone could do that would be good, ie do no harm but still DO something.

Also, in my personal case I'm intending to upgrade my flock in 2013 (from learn about chickens mutts, to rare breeds that I can help preserve) so I'm trying based on specific things I've learned just this week on BYC to get a better understanding of what my best contribution can be given my personal situation.

For example:
I'm currently feeding 25 mutt/hatchery chickens (if I sold eggs I could feed more chickens), I have 30 acres w/ some naturally distinct areas, I currently have 6 coop&yards (by which I mean totally enclosed w/ wire on top & underground around them so birds have safe outdoor area on non-free range days). So given all that do I get all one breed, or several & would it matter which way I go in my little part of help toward the overall big picture of these breeds will be _gone_ if enough ppl more or less like me do not take specific actions very soon.

I feel like the overall answers I'm getting so far fit w/ my pre-existing plans;
-- I have space to try several of the rare breeds so I can see which ones work at my location, if I feel more that one fits in on my land than I can choose to help more than one breed, maybe say 2 or 3 in very small numbers, but (assuming I run a small fresh eating egg biz.which I have not been doing) it would work here for me.
--I need to use Rolling breeding.
--Choosing Buckeye as one of my rare breeds is great (single color, good for learning type).

These are all very specific actions I can individually take right away, this coming yr 2013, while doing what I need for me, on my homestead (produce food/eggs & meat).

I tend to be a planner, I know many ppl would rather have a plan laid out, like a step-by-step guide, so my problem solving mind was thinking what is the bottom line, step-by-step guide for a person who's heart is in the right place but who has no idea how to be helpful, I think you two (Karen & Charlie) have spelled that out, but I would also love to see from those that are wise about these issues a list of Don'ts. -- I'm certain the wise folks on here would have some Don't that will really sock the rest of us, and having those cautions helps the goodhearted would-be preservationists actually do no harm

Thanks
FeyRaine

 

[buffalogal]

A dozen (10 females to 2 males) is great, 6 to 8 is nice, even a trio is good, but using the third chart that Bob posted, you can start with only a pair. In a few years, you will be running three distinct lines; one favoring the original male, one favoring the original female and a third that is MOL an even blend of both.
Caveat: if you start with good stock and follow chart Number 3 (the one I've always used) you are going to have some pretty nice birds for a couple of generations and then it's going to seem like your whole breeding program is going to H.E. double L in a handbasket when the really nasty faults start showing up even as the overall size is mysteriously dropping. Don't give up, just cull hard and as you hit 11/16th or thereabouts, the size will start back up and you will have bred those faults out of your flock. If you add "new blood', I would say do it on the female side if you can. I know, everyone likes to swap out roosters, but if you can only keep a limited number of birds, most likely, that means only one male. If you've already been linebreeding, you don't want to use a new guy on all your hens and find out in two years that he carries a roach back or wry tail and now all your birds do too. I've found it's better to add a new girl and line breed her to the best male because you minimize the potential 'damage' her genetics might do to your flock. If the cross turns out to be a good one, you can always promote a male from her descendants later. If you're new to the breed, or poultry in general, get someone to mentor you and teach you how to select culls and keepers because the most important thing you can learn is what *not* to put in the breeding pen. That's pretty much all I know about it.

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

u here advise on this thread all the time to stick to one breed and i think that is good in most cases for maximum effect... but if your bent more on preservation than u can cheat lol... here is one thing that a older breeder at the SPPA told me... he only bred his breeds every 3 or 4 years... each year he would pick out 2 or 3 breeds that where down in numbers and work with them... if u have 10 breeds but can only raise 100 chicks per year that's only 10 per breed and wont do much to help the breed out in fact you would be going backwards... but if u have 10 breeds and u only breed 2 or 3 in any given year that is 33 or 50 chicks per breed and will have a much greater impact on the quality of that breed... then by fall u can cull back to the 10 best of each breed (4 roo 6 hens) and move on... if u go by this u could preserve 10 breeds for a long time with no genetic problems as your only advancing a generation every 3 or 4 years... now your not going to improve the the breed very fast but u can preserve it for a long time...
the major problem i see with this is u have to have a predator proof pen... u cant afford to loose many at all...
i think even if a person just wanted to work with 2 breeds and focus on 1 each year... or 3 breeds and only focus on one each year this would work great...

one of the other things that he talked about is the industrial and American idea that the birds where only good for a year or 2 and then where no good and culled... he said he had hens that where 10 years old and still going strong... he would never breed a bird until it was at least 2 years old... how many of us have had the almost perfect looking roo at 9 to 12 months old hatched a ton of chicks from him and then he molted and in comes a bunch of white tail or wing feathers??? well u can cull him and replace him but most of his sons will pro do the same thing... the other thing do you know how many eggs your hen will lay her 2nd 3rd or 4th year??? most don't i bet... would it not be better to have a bird that would pay for itself for 3 or 4 years instead of replacing most of the flock each year???

now to be fare just because i know this don't mean i practice it lol... i have way to many breeds and need to focus down allot more than i am... just my 2 cents Elias

 

[Pozees]

A dozen (10 females to 2 males) is great, 6 to 8 is nice, even a trio is good, but using the third chart that Bob posted, you can start with only a pair. In a few years, you will be running three distinct lines; one favoring the original male, one favoring the original female and a third that is MOL an even blend of both.

Caveat: if you start with good stock and follow chart Number 3 (the one I've always used) you are going to have some pretty nice birds for a couple of generations and then it's going to seem like your whole breeding program is going to H.E. double L in a handbasket when the really nasty faults start showing up  even as the overall size is mysteriously dropping. Don't give up, just cull hard and as you hit 11/16th or thereabouts, the size will start back up and you will have bred those faults out of your flock. If you add "new blood', I would say do it on the female side if you can. I know, everyone likes to swap out roosters, but if you can only keep a limited number of birds, most likely, that means only one male. If you've already been linebreeding, you don't want to use a new guy on all your hens and find out in two years that he carries a roach back or wry tail and now all your birds do too. I've found it's better to add a new girl and line breed  her to the best male because you minimize the potential 'damage' her genetics might do to your flock. If the cross turns out to be a good one, you can always promote a male from her descendants later. If you're new to the breed, or poultry in general, get someone to mentor you and teach you how to select culls and keepers because the most important thing you can learn is what *not* to put in the breeding pen. That's pretty much all I know about it.

That's a lot! I deeply appreciate the caution about what happens after a couple of generations, and advice to stick with it. It makes me wonder how many have given up at that point. I anticipate learning to cull hard will be the most difficult for me, and have already been advised that once the obvious culls are removed from the breeding program, the rest will probably be around a year old before the next cut is made, and as pointed out by HHF right after your post, the first molt can change things.