Calcium, roosters, and mash mixing--help?

[NightingaleJen]

I feed our flock of 25 hens and two roosters fermented mash daily, made from (roughly) a dry (mason jar scooped) quart of Purina All-Flock. The birds also have free access to All-Flock and necessary calcium supplements and free range most afternoons.

We had leftover Scratch & Peck grower, so I began mixing it into the mash at the rate of maybe one quart or so dry scooped into the All Flock into a 7-quart container; from this I scoop a quart of dry feed into a half-gallon jar to ferment for a couple of days before giving it to the flock.

Since they seem to really like and even have nicer feathers on this combination, I purchased more Scratch and Peck whole grain feed to keep mixing it in, but grabbed layer feed without even thinking about it! Boneheaded days, most of us have them... Of course, it has added calcium. (Label screenshot included)

Is it okay to keep mixing this into the mash--which my two roosters also very much enjoy--or should I give this bag to my friend's flock of hens and get something else without calcium? Our roosters are the best boys, and I would never want to hurt them. Thanks!

 

[sourland]

Given the limited quantity in the mix, and the relatively short time till it is all fed, I do not foresee any problem.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Its OK. I would not encourage you doing it long term if you plan to keep those roosters long term.

Two things you need to understand to help you make an educated decision.

1) The effects of excess calcium on birds (of either gender) is most pronounced during their growth stage. Excess calcium in hatchlings and adolescents produces clinically ignificant results in months, results which will have lifelong effect on the birds. The counterpoint is also true. Excess calcium in adult birds (Roosters particularly, as they have the lowest calcium needs, but also hens who infrequently lay and produce smallish eggs) is much less dangerous over the short term, because their growth is done, their organs well put together (hopefully) and their greater overall mass.

2) Calcium toxicity is progressive. It is time and dose dependent. Like smoking, the greater the excess calcium, and the longer the time period its fed, the more likely there will be an adverse outcome.

That's the theory, and that's the consistent result of the studies. "Hard numbers" are harder to come by, so now I will offer anecdote - my own experience.

People who follow my posts in the feed forums know that I generally recommend, for most backyard keepers, an "All Flock"-type formulation, plus free choice calcium, for all birds, of all ages, at all times. Those who read closely know I don't actually feed my own birds that way. I feed a high protein (above typical "All Flock" levels) feed to all my birds for the first roughly 8-12 weeks of life. Then they join the main flock, where they get a 20% CP feed I make by mixing a 16% "Layer" with a 24% "Game Bird". That results in about 2.6% average calcium - higher than optimal.

When I butcher my Roos young (under 26 weeks), I can detect no signs of excess calcium in their systems - its there, its just below my ability to detect. At 80 weeks +/- (a year and a half), I can consistently detect evidence of calcium toxicity when butchering in some number of my birds (while examining the organ cavity), though there is NO external evidence visually, and seemingly no health impact. I've never taken a rooster to, say, 4 or 5 years - but I would anticipate seeing signs of excess calcium intake visually, externally, primarily in the form of inflamed joints, possibly some problems in their "waste". I'd anticipate confirming that with a white/powdery susbstance on some of the organs, the intestines particularly, increased friability (that is, "crumbly") in the liver and kidneys, etc. Maybe crystals in the urates.

Hope that helps you make your decision.

tl;dr: what @sourland said.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

Thank you, Storm.

 

[NightingaleJen]

@sourland @U_Stormcrow

Thank you both, I appreciate it. This was definitely an accident, since I also have always preferred all-flock feeds myself.

Thank you!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Sure. Got to be some reason people put up w/ me around here. Happy to have provided something of value.

 

[NightingaleJen]

Sure. Got to be some reason people put up w/ me around here. Happy to have provided something of value.

 

[Nashelle]

Hi, could I just ask how you ferment the mash?
My chickens don't seem to like the mash simply mixed with water. I wondered if there was a way to make it more appealing to them.

 

[NightingaleJen]

Hi, could I just ask how you ferment the mash?
My chickens don't seem to like the mash simply mixed with water. I wondered if there was a way to make it more appealing to them.

I just put the quart of dry feed into a half-gallon mason jar (it's what I have around) and add water to the second-to-last line on the jar—YMMV, because the feed will absorb a lot of water. Maybe have an inch of water over the top of the dry feed at first and keep an eye on it until you get the hang of it. Then I just let it sit for 2-3 days, stirring 1-2 times a day, and give it to the birds. Typically I have 3 jars at one time: Today's mash, tomorrow's, and the next day's.

Occasionally I'll toss some (usually dry, depending on the season) herbs in, though that is probably mostly for my own benefit, and to keep things not smelling so much like a distillery (particularly during summer). If your birds aren't too excited about it, maybe start with small amounts of it at first. Even the brief fermentation must make it taste a *little* different, so that may help.

Good luck! I hope they come around!

 

[UpstateChickenDaddy]

So how do you give your girls the calcium while not overloading your boys? Do they self select?