Can someone explain this chick?

[RememberTheWay]

I have been experimenting with blue sex link crosses using Barred Plymouth Rock hens and a Splash Easter egger rooster. All of the resulting chicks have been blue and easily sex linked at hatch by the presence of lack of a white dot on the back of there heads.

A few wks ago one of my Barred rocks not being hatched from at the time got into my Ermine Breeding Pen when she followed me in and I just didn't remove her. Shortly afterwards (maybe a wk or two) she was removed from that pen and put in with the other barred rocks. I forgot about her being with the Ermine. I had a chick hatch a couple days ago clearly from a Barred rock egg (they are my only hens that lay that color brown) and the chick is Ermine colored. Yellow down with black spots. It has a straight or modified comb not sure yet.

I was wondering if someone could explain to me how this chick happened? I thought barring was dominant? But I also understand that if only the hen is Barred in a cross it won't be passed to her daughters? Does this mean this chick must be female? Is is possible to get a sex linkage from this cross?

 

[RiDaGeckoGuy]

Yes from my understanding Americanas can make sex links but other people say that both your hens and Roos have a chance to be barred so I think that its probably not sex link.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

@NatJ

 

[NatJ]

I have been experimenting with blue sex link crosses using Barred Plymouth Rock hens and a Splash Easter egger rooster. All of the resulting chicks have been blue and easily sex linked at hatch by the presence of lack of a white dot on the back of there heads.

A few wks ago one of my Barred rocks not being hatched from at the time got into my Ermine Breeding Pen when she followed me in and I just didn't remove her. Shortly afterwards (maybe a wk or two) she was removed from that pen and put in with the other barred rocks. I forgot about her being with the Ermine. I had a chick hatch a couple days ago clearly from a Barred rock egg (they are my only hens that lay that color brown) and the chick is Ermine colored. Yellow down with black spots. It has a straight or modified comb not sure yet.

I was wondering if someone could explain to me how this chick happened? I thought barring was dominant? But I also understand that if only the hen is Barred in a cross it won't be passed to her daughters? Does this mean this chick must be female? Is is possible to get a sex linkage from this cross?

You have been making one sexlink cross: barred hen with not-barred rooster (Splash Ameraucana) produces sons with white barring and daughters with no barring.

That chick is probably a different sexlink cross: barred hen with not-barred rooster (Ermine) will produce sons with white barring and daughters with no barring.

The chick obviously inherited the Dominant White gene from the Ermine rooster (turns black into white but leaves black bits here and there). That makes it harder to see if the chick has white barring or not, because white barring on a white chicken is not exactly obvious :lol But if you can tell for sure that the chick has no white barring, then yes it must be female.

The Ermine rooster should not have white barring, but you might not know if he did because it wouldn't be very visible. If the rooster does have white barring, he could produce barred daughters as well as barred sons with that hen. Un-barred chicks still be female, but barred ones could be male or female in that case.

That same hen will probably produce Ermine-mix chicks that look black (with or without white barring), in addition to white ones. Those will be easy to sex by whether they are barred or not (unless the Ermine rooster has barring, in which case barred chicks could be male or female but unbarred chicks would still have to be female.)

 

[RememberTheWay]

You have been making one sexlink cross: barred hen with not-barred rooster (Splash Ameraucana) produces sons with white barring and daughters with no barring.

That chick is probably a different sexlink cross: barred hen with not-barred rooster (Ermine) will produce sons with white barring and daughters with no barring

Okay- I'm having a hard time following what you spelled out here- mainly because both situations are "Barred hen x non Barred roo" sex links? Am I missing something? You said that I was creating two different types of sex link crosses but then you give the same example for each cross lol... I'm confused

The chick obviously inherited the Dominant White gene from the Ermine rooster (turns black into white but leaves black bits here and there). That makes it harder to see if the chick has white barring or not, because white barring on a white chicken is not exactly obvious :lol But if you can tell for sure that the chick has no white barring, then yes it must be female.

Okay..I'm not even sure I can explain where my head was at when I wrote this originally. Lol. I'll try though. Now I'm realizing I maybe got a little too excited and didn't properly think things through far enough because I totally knew what your saying here. I think in my head I was thinking, one Barred mother equals solid colored chicks with white dots , example the blue chicks I've been getting. Lol. I'm pretty sure my brain malfunctioned when an Ermine popped out from a BR egg, because I know everything your saying here and totally would have eventually figured this out had I given myself more time to ponder. Lol.

I guess now my questions are a lot more technical in that is it possible for this chick to not really be an ermine in the traditional sense. Meaning it was supposed to be genetically black, without barring, but received the dominant white gene which covered it up, and because one parent definitely had the modifier genes to make more black leak through - here we are?

That same hen will probably produce Ermine-mix chicks that look black (with or without white barring), in addition to white ones. Those will be easy to sex by whether they are barred or not (unless the Ermine rooster has barring, in which case barred chicks could be male or female but unbarred chicks would still have to be female.)

If I'm reading this correctly you are saying my possible chick colors from pairing a BR hen with an Ermine rooster will either be ermine chicks, solid black no barring, or solid black with barring? Are there any other colors or patterns that I should be aware of?

My next question is concerning a new chick I had hatch today. Came from a blue Eggs- only hens with blue eggs at this time are my leghornxEE cross hens (F1's). They are both houses with the Ermine rooster. The chick day came out looking like my blue sex link pullets, beautiful shade of sold blue with minimal white/yellow in small places, muffs/beard, pea comb, dark with pink shanks and feet, black/dark beak. Should I suspect the hens or the rooster or both? I know I only need one copy of blue to get blue chicks so.... I'm posting a picture of the EE roo that sired the EE hens who I just hatched from. Maybe that will help figure this out. (Sidenote- now that I've uploaded the picture and taken a better look at him- I think my hens are definitely the issue- he is very clearly blue- I actually didn't remember him being blue at all in my mind he was black where the blue is...) lol

Next- is it possible for a bird to express BOTH black AND blue feather colors? I have a chick feathering out right now that seems to be doing just that. Also have a chick with down that I noted one of it's ermine spots looks like it could actually be grey not true black? Watching it. The one feathering out though, was white/yellow down all over when it hatched. No ermine spots at all. When wings began to feather, those feathers were all nice crisp white. Then when other places began to feather other first nice dark black feathers were coming in . Very nicely colored, I was looking it over earlier though and it seems like some of the feathers coming in are slate/charcoal grey not exactly black. One of them actually looks to have both black and grey on the same feather?

Ok- so my question concerning the possible blue is - Is it possible for a chick to express blue and black feathering on the same feather/entire bird?

And because the EE hens sire was blue, does this mean their white (dominant) is covering up a genetically blue bird underneath? What is the probability that they both are genetically blue?

 

[NatJ]

Okay- I'm having a hard time following what you spelled out here- mainly because both situations are "Barred hen x non Barred roo" sex links? Am I missing something? You said that I was creating two different types of sex link crosses but then you give the same example for each cross lol... I'm confused

That actually was my point. Basically, you made matching crosses that produce sexlink chicks (barred hen not-barred rooster). You just had splash vs. dominant white making the chicks look different colors, so it was not obvious that the cross was the "same" for purposes of sexing with the barring gene.

Okay..I'm not even sure I can explain where my head was at when I wrote this originally...I know everything your saying here and totally would have eventually figured this out had I given myself more time to ponder. Lol.

It's funny how that happens sometimes. Yes, it's happened to me sometimes too.
It's a bit like looking at something from a different side and not recognizing it (a book's back cover vs. front, a familiar street intersection from a different direction, etc.) Once you turn it around, physically or mentally, it looks familiar again and you know what you're dealing with.

I guess now my questions are a lot more technical in that is it possible for this chick to not really be an ermine in the traditional sense. Meaning it was supposed to be genetically black, without barring, but received the dominant white gene which covered it up, and because one parent definitely had the modifier genes to make more black leak through - here we are?

That a depends on what really makes a chick "ermine."
It it means black with dominant white, and some black leaking through, then Ermine and Paint and leaky White are all the same, and the chick is all of them at once.
If ermine is a black leakage that looks a particular way, and paint is black leakage that looks a different particular way, you will probably have to wait until the chick grows up to tell whether it is ermine, paint, or just a leaky white.

If I'm reading this correctly you are saying my possible chick colors from pairing a BR hen with an Ermine rooster will either be ermine chicks, solid black no barring, or solid black with barring? Are there any other colors or patterns that I should be aware of?

Yes those, plus ermine chicks with white barring

That is assuming that all white-with-leakage chicks are actually ermine. They might really "paint" or "leaky white" depending on what definition is used for "ermine."

If each parent has all the correct genes to show and breed true for their color variety, you will not get any other colors of chicks. But there is always a chance of the parents carrying recessive genes that I don't expect.

My next question is concerning a new chick I had hatch today. Came from a blue Eggs- only hens with blue eggs at this time are my leghornxEE cross hens (F1's). They are both houses with the Ermine rooster. The chick day came out looking like my blue sex link pullets, beautiful shade of sold blue with minimal white/yellow in small places, muffs/beard, pea comb, dark with pink shanks and feet, black/dark beak. Should I suspect the hens or the rooster or both? I know I only need one copy of blue to get blue chicks so.... I'm posting a picture of the EE roo that sired the EE hens who I just hatched from. Maybe that will help figure this out. (Sidenote- now that I've uploaded the picture and taken a better look at him- I think my hens are definitely the issue- he is very clearly blue- I actually didn't remember him being blue at all in my mind he was black where the blue is...) lol

Which thing was puzzling about the chick? That it showed blue? If the grandfather was blue, and the mother had dominant white (which hides whether she is blue or not), then the mother could have also had blue, which makes a blue chick easy to explain.

Also, if White Leghorn was the variety involved: I've read that many White Leghorns are genetically Blue or Splash along with the other genes they have. So there is a chance that your mixed hens inherited blue from their Leghorn parent or their EE parent or both.

Yes, I'm pretty sure the chick received the blue gene from the mixed-breed mother, not the Ermine father, unless the Ermine was showing blue in his coloring (rather than the usual black.)

Next- is it possible for a bird to express BOTH black AND blue feather colors? I have a chick feathering out right now that seems to be doing just that.

Yes and no. Many "blue" chickens have several shades of blue, and maybe some actual black. Blue Andalusians have blue feathers with black lacing on the edge of each feather. I've seen other blue chickens with head and neck almost black, tail a very light blue, and the rest of the body an in-between shade of blue.

So I would probably say that the chick is just expressing blue but that "expressing blue" can sometimes include a certain amount of black.

Also have a chick with down that I noted one of it's ermine spots looks like it could actually be grey not true black? Watching it. The one feathering out though, was white/yellow down all over when it hatched. No ermine spots at all. When wings began to feather, those feathers were all nice crisp white. Then when other places began to feather other first nice dark black feathers were coming in . Very nicely colored, I was looking it over earlier though and it seems like some of the feathers coming in are slate/charcoal grey not exactly black. One of them actually looks to have both black and grey on the same feather?

Maybe Blue Ermine, if it came from the same mix as the other chick with blue. I don't know if "Blue Ermine" is really the right term, but I mean dominant white with black leakage (ermine or paint), plus the blue gene turning that black leakage into blue, with the different shades being what sometimes happens with blue chickens (previous two paragraphs.)

Ok- so my question concerning the possible blue is - Is it possible for a chick to express blue and black feathering on the same feather/entire bird?

Um, sort of?

Example:
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/blue_andalusians.html
Many of the birds in their photos have several shades of blue, and some that is either black or so dark blue that it looks black to me. The rooster in the first photo has some feathers in his hackles that have lighter blue centers and darker blue (or maybe black) on the edges of the feathers.

And because the EE hens sire was blue, does this mean their white (dominant) is covering up a genetically blue bird underneath?

Probably yes.

What is the probability that they both are genetically blue?

50% chance, if their father was blue and their mother had no blue gene.

A bit higher than that, if their mother was a White Leghorn, because she might have been genetically blue or splash without showing it (white hides it, and it is known that some White Leghorns have the blue gene.)

If crossing those hens to the Ermine rooster gives only blue chicks (solid blue or blue ermine/blue paint), that would mean the hens are actually splash. But if you get some chicks showing black with no blue, then at least one hen has a not-blue gene (genetically black or blue under her white feathers, not splash.)

If you hatch large numbers of chicks, and keep track of which ones come from each hen, you can probably figure it out after a while. The Ermine father should only give not-blue genes. A blue chick proves the mother has at least one blue gene. A not-blue chick proves the other has at least one not-blue gene. Large numbers of blue chicks but no chicks with not-blue will show that the mother has two blue genes (splash.)