Chicken feed check

[U_Stormcrow]

See also

and this

also this

Yeah, why not.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the "alternate" opinions on this come mostly either from those who understand the risks but choose to do so anyways [like myself] and those who lack the experience and knowledge to recognize the damage for what it is, particularly since sudden death by kidney failure isn't something most BYCers would trace to excess calcium, most of us don't get all up inside our birds to have a periodic look around, and the visually obvious long term symptoms - like gout - are often associated with old age, rather than an underlying pathology. There are a lot of the latter. The science on this is well settled.

But if you don't keep your roos long, the risk is very low. If "good enough" is good enough - you don't care that your birds could have been a little bigger under a more optimum diet - for you, then it doesn't matter. and again, for birds harvested young, risks are quite low. If you use a bifurcated feeding regimen, such that your birds are on a starter/grower or all flock-type formulation prior to point of lay (that is, the critical time period when they are most susceptible to excess calcium), again, your risks are quite low [this is basically what I do]. If your birds free range a varied environment, that helps. Calcium sources other than calcium carbonate helps. Additional Phosphorus (to a point) helps. There are vitamins that help regulate CA / P Balance which can also buffer the effect of excess dietary calcium.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and in fairness, I'm going to offer my "Smoking Analogy" before then volunteering that @JacinLarkwell has (or had) a pair of roughly 10 year old roos on layer feed that were still getting along well as of almost two years ago.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

I lost my first rooster, Elvis, way too young and completely unexpectedly. I was devastated. When I learned that roosters should not have layer feed, I switched to all flock and have never gone back. Do I know layer feed caused his death? No. Could it have? Yes. Am I willing to take a chance ever again? No. I trust the wisdom of BYC.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

and in fairness, I'm going to offer my "Smoking Analogy" before then volunteering that @JacinLarkwell has (or had) a pair of roughly 10 year old roos on layer feed that were still getting along well as of almost two years ago.

Still have both of those boys, but they've been on duck feed now for about 21 months, so they haven't had all that extra calcium for that time either. Also have a handful of hens that age that lay very rarely that are on the same diet

 

[Debbie292d]

and in fairness, I'm going to offer my "Smoking Analogy" before then volunteering that @JacinLarkwell has (or had) a pair of roughly 10 year old roos on layer feed that were still getting along well as of almost two years ago.

I have a silkie rooster about 8 years old that dips into the oyster shell dish now and then. He's been doing it for about a year, and never ever did it before. He's free-ranged his whole life, so wouldn't be mistaking it for grit or something else as I doubt it's very tasty.

They've all been on Kalmbach's Flock Maker 20% (an all-flock version) for about three years, and prior to that, they were all getting layer.

I have no idea why he does this other than my own assumption that his old bones must need it.

 

[PioneerChicks]

YES. I've linked it multiple times, a few sources:

Here's Merck Manual (scroll down)
Small Farmer's Journal Winter 2003
National Institute of Animal Health (Tokyo) study, 1981
Cambridge University Press, 2007
Excess Calcium and Fertility, Poultry Science 2021
Calcium Nutrition of Broilers (2023)
CA P Ratio Regulation, Frontiers in Physiology 2023
Calcium Toxicosis in Chicks (1979)
Modern Poultry Case Study (not a controlled study)

I can (and have) linked others. I'm hardly alone on this.

Here's Eggsighted back in 2019
Here's a thread w/ Ridgerunner, Shadrach, ChickenCanoe, Wyorp Rock, all weighing in back in 2018.

Here's an Xray showing the development of urates in the flock of a BYCer that allowed young birds to range w/ the adults and eat layer.

and FWIW, I process all my own birds, and for complicated reasons, my near adult and adult birds get more calcium than optimal. I can detect signs of excess calcium on the surface of the organs in some of the male birds I process at 18 months+/-, some of the time. I have complete confidence that if I cut open the organs and used something more than my eyes, I could detect it 100% of the time at that age in my Roos.

Hope that answers the question to your satisfaction?

See also

and this

also this

Yeah, why not.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the "alternate" opinions on this come mostly either from those who understand the risks but choose to do so anyways [like myself] and those who lack the experience and knowledge to recognize the damage for what it is, particularly since sudden death by kidney failure isn't something most BYCers would trace to excess calcium, most of us don't get all up inside our birds to have a periodic look around, and the visually obvious long term symptoms - like gout - are often associated with old age, rather than an underlying pathology. There are a lot of the latter. The science on this is well settled.

But if you don't keep your roos long, the risk is very low. If "good enough" is good enough - you don't care that your birds could have been a little bigger under a more optimum diet - for you, then it doesn't matter. and again, for birds harvested young, risks are quite low. If you use a bifurcated feeding regimen, such that your birds are on a starter/grower or all flock-type formulation prior to point of lay (that is, the critical time period when they are most susceptible to excess calcium), again, your risks are quite low [this is basically what I do]. If your birds free range a varied environment, that helps. Calcium sources other than calcium carbonate helps. Additional Phosphorus (to a point) helps. There are vitamins that help regulate CA / P Balance which can also buffer the effect of excess dietary calcium.

This is exactly what I've been looking for, thank you so much!!! I've been searching for a while and was surprised at how hard it is to find credible sources. I've never seen them all gathered together like you have them. Would you ever consider making a BYC article on this?

 

[Turkens13]

This is exactly what I've been looking for, thank you so much!!! I've been searching for a while and was surprised at how hard it is to find credible sources. I've never seen them all gathered together like you have them. Would you ever consider making a BYC article on this?

Me?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I have a silkie rooster about 8 years old that dips into the oyster shell dish now and then. He's been doing it for about a year, and never ever did it before. He's free-ranged his whole life, so wouldn't be mistaking it for grit or something else as I doubt it's very tasty.

They've all been on Kalmbach's Flock Maker 20% (an all-flock version) for about three years, and prior to that, they were all getting layer.

I have no idea why he does this other than my own assumption that his old bones must need it.

There is EXTREMELY little research on old birds. There is, however, some things I've read which suggest that very old birds have increasing difficulty regulating certain vitamin and mineral uptakes, including those responsible for bone maintenance. So if an old male is choosing to meet calcium needs by occasionally grabbing a bit of oyster shell as his systems become less efficient, I'd say he's doing what he should. There are several good studies showing that, given the option, most birds are very good at self regulating calcium intake.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

This is exactly what I've been looking for, thank you so much!!! I've been searching for a while and was surprised at how hard it is to find credible sources. I've never seen them all gathered together like you have them. Would you ever consider making a BYC article on this?

Glad I could help. That's what BYC is for.

...and I've considered writing several articles, but don't have the time to do it to my satisfaction. Also, I don't consider myself an expert by any means. Just reasonably well read.