Comments on organic farming

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/press/news-2019/organic-farming-could-increase-greenhouse-gas-emissions

https://www.technologyreview.com/20...farming-is-actually-worse-for-climate-change/

These two are one study, and an article referring to the same study, about agriculture specifically in England and Wales. I think they make some questionable assumptions.

I find it hilarious that people somehow thing that "big organic" is pulling strings to make big bucks. Like the oil and chemical companies and massive monocrop traditional farming are the innocent victims of a hit job.

 

[Magnumchicken]

Any monoculture crop can hurt the environment.

Show me an article proving that organic regenerative farming is har

This one talks about ONE farm (granted, a big one) that is using poor techniques.

"One organic farm" and "organic farming" are not the same thing. The article even quotes an expert on organic farming saying they're not doing what they should.

Organic farming generally goes not suggest "lots of tillage", but often is tied to "no till". Not always, but more often than not.

Nothing is perfect, for sure...but if "someone doing something wrong makes the thing bad" is a thing, then we should probably stop having cars since some people are lousy drivers.

There are a bunch of articles there hoss, covering thousands of farms, dozens of countries, peer reviewed journals, multiple crop types.

Actually you have it backwards. Non organic no till farmers only till once a decade. For organic farmers, no till refers to only once a year full tillage. There is just no other way around it or you end up with a lawn of weeds and bugs.

At some point every farmer needs to till some. This is due to the fact that phosphorus is immobile in the soil and all the P ends up in the top inch or 2.

 

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

There are a bunch of articles there hoss, covering thousands of farms, dozens of countries, peer reviewed journals, multiple crop types.

Actually you have it backwards. Non organic no till farmers only till once a decade. For organic farmers, no till refers to only once a year full tillage. There is just no other way around it or you end up with a lawn of weeds and bugs.

At some point every farmer needs to till some. This is due to the fact that phosphorus is immobile in the soil and all the P ends up in the top inch or 2.

Both systems are imperfect. Tilling is bad, but spraying chemical insect and herbicides isn't good either.

One problem with organic currently is the crop yields, which are generally lower. This isn't shocking since non-organic agriculture is specifically designed to grow a lot of food cheap. It's not sustainable, but it's cheap. Can something be done to improve crop yields in organic farming? Probably.

One thing I've seen that is promising is the use of biochar to help level out the N ratios...right now, to get enough N organically, you tend to add too much P.

I just don't like the idea that "organic farming isn't perfect, so it's not good". That's an oversimplification, especially since the current system isn't good, for lots of reasons.

 

[Magnumchicken]

These two are one study, and an article referring to the same study, about agriculture specifically in England and Wales. I think they make some questionable assumptions.

I find it hilarious that people somehow thing that "big organic" is pulling strings to make big bucks. Like the oil and chemical companies and massive monocrop traditional farming are the innocent victims of a hit job.

Thier point wasn't about big ag being victims, it is about global food supply. If you are in India right now, you are paying more for your flour since some Western farmland is being diverted to organic. This increased price is incentive for more 3rd world farmers to cut down more forrests to make farmland releasing even more CO2.

Then there is Brazil. Can't cut down Forrest fast enough for the $7 a bushel corn and 14 a bushel soybean that we have now.

Livestock feed and ethanol overall are a significant driver of price. Many poor in 3rd world are essentially competing in part with chicken farms for grain. Don't forget that almost 4 billion people worldwide live on less than $5 a day.

 

[Magnumchicken]

Both systems are imperfect. Tilling is bad, but spraying chemical insect and herbicides isn't good either.

One problem with organic currently is the crop yields, which are generally lower. This isn't shocking since non-organic agriculture is specifically designed to grow a lot of food cheap. It's not sustainable, but it's cheap. Can something be done to improve crop yields in organic farming? Probably.

One thing I've seen that is promising is the use of biochar to help level out the N ratios...right now, to get enough N organically, you tend to add too much P.

I just don't like the idea that "organic farming isn't perfect, so it's not good". That's an oversimplification, especially since the current system isn't good, for lots of reasons.

Nobody wants to spray if they don't have to, but billions a year are spent on making better safer ag chemicals. Comparing technology from 40 years ago to now is like comparing the first cell phones to the latest iPhone.

Ld50 for bifenthrin... Modern insecticide, is 2g/kg. If you weigh 100kg that is 200 grams. The label says to use 2 oz per acre, in 20 gal of water. You need to drink 60 gallons of what a farmer sprays on a field to have a 50% chance of dying.

 

[Perris]

@Magnumchicken do you think this is acceptable?
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...imals-die-on-way-to-abattoir-in-us-every-year

 

[Iluveggers]

My uncle’s job was spraying pesticides. He died young of lymphoma. I’ll take my chances with organic since I can afford it.

 

[fuzzi]

Organic was the norm until the 20th century, with the addition of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides.

We all know how people who used RoundUp have fared with their non-Hodgkin lymphoma.

You want to do chemical farming? Be my guest, just consider the prevailing winds so I don't get your carcinogenic chemicals in my yard.

Now, let's talk chickens!

 

[Red-Stars-in-RI]

These are complicated issues, no doubt. The earth's population was 2 billion in 1900. It was 2.5 billion in 1950. Now it's a rounding error short of 8 billion.

Some of that is because modern ag practices allowed for a massive increase in food production, at costs lower than any time in history. The bad news is that from a climate perspective, it's not sustainable.

The tricky part is how do you feed 8 billion (and growing) people any other way at this point...there's no one silver bullet, and it's going to take a variety of approaches to fix things, for sure.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

These are complicated issues, no doubt. The earth's population was 2 billion in 1900. It was 2.5 billion in 1950. Now it's a rounding error short of 8 billion.

Some of that is because modern ag practices allowed for a massive increase in food production, at costs lower than any time in history. The bad news is that from a climate perspective, it's not sustainable.

The tricky part is how do you feed 8 billion (and growing) people any other way at this point...there's no one silver bullet, and it's going to take a variety of approaches to fix things, for sure.

I would argue that every time a new pandemic sweeps the globe, its Fate checking to see if that particular bullet is the "silver" one.

and yes, there is an element of conspicious consumption and classism in the organic movement. "I can afford to pay a preium for inefficient production and independent supply chains" to serve my preferences while others starve. Sort of like wearing an expensive tie (or any tie at all) began as a way to show off that you could be wasteful with cloth (and could afford importing from distant India and China), and sumptuary laws arose to prevent people from dressing above their station. But that's not true of all its adherants.

Just as there is an element of theft in exploiting non-recoverable resources to provide cheap food today, effectively stealing from the future.

Probably best no side attempts to seize the moral high ground here.