Father/daughter mating. Should I let them?

[Florida Bullfrog]

All domestic breeds off animals that have repeatable traits that define the breed have been inbred through parent x child mating to so create the breed. Doing it for several generations is about as close to natural cloning in animals through otherwise normal sexual reproduction.

This is moreso reinforced in chickens where the natural order of a chicken flock is for a dominant rooster to kill or drive off all of his rivals and keep his daughters, granddaughters, ect. for his breeding hens into the perpetuity of his rule over the flock. Chickens don’t disperse far in nature like some other galliformes do (like wild turkey). Every flock in the wild is often its own inbred unit for several yeaes.

So if father and daughter are healthy, they’ll be fine.

 

[BubbaBubbles]

Did both come from the same source?

Yes, same breeder. But I adopted them from my sister who could no longer care for them, so info is very limited.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Even if I allowed Mable to have a chick (she's been broody lately), it wouldn't have any defects would it? Just want to make sure.

There is no way to be sure. Real life doesn't work that way.

A model that has been used on small farms for thousands of years is that they keep a flock for several generations and hatch chicks. The rooster with his daughters or granddaughters. And they keep replacement roosters from the chicks too. Eventually you can develop problem: less fertility, poorer production, illness, or deformities. How long you can go with inbreeding depends on the genetic make-up. You don't know for sure how closely related those are other than that one is the father to the daughter. I have no idea what your risk is.

Would appreciate if anyone with experience in breeding father/daughter or mother/son chickens can share info, too

Dad kept a flock like that. About every four of five generations he'd bring in some new chicks and add them to the flock. He'd add some pullets and keep one rooster to be the new flock master. He did not have inbreeding problems.

I think your odds are pretty good that you would not have genetic problems but I sure cannot guarantee that.

 

[Unswydd]

I know this is an older thread but what about brother sister breeding?

 

[BubbaBubbles]

I know this is an older thread but what about brother sister breeding?

I'm not sure how it goes for that either. I got rid of her brothers because they ganged on her and hurt her a lot. Just having her dad, she doesn't get hurt.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I know this is an older thread but what about brother sister breeding?

Not ideal, since they share more genetic similarity than any other combination. If you must, half siblings are better to breed than full

 

[Chicken_tiger_catt]

Hope I chose the correct thread!

So, I have Trifle (head roo of the entire flock), his main girl Truffles, and their daughter Mable. Mable will be 1 yr this year. Trifle's already started dancing for Mable and Truffles acts very possessive and gets jealous when Mable wants to lay near him. Anyway, I fully expected he'd probably try mating with Mable since she's maturing and laying eggs now. Should I let him keep it up? Even if I allowed Mable to have a chick (she's been broody lately), it wouldn't have any defects would it? Just want to make sure. Would appreciate if anyone with experience in breeding father/daughter or mother/son chickens can share info, too.
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Chickens are very different than mammals, and probably withstand a couple generations of inbreeding better than we can.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I know this is an older thread but what about brother sister breeding?

Terrible for disease resistance. Great for morphing birds to hit particular traits you want and making outstanding individuals. You have to make a bunch of offspring from the brother/sister pairing to get individuals that look and act like you want and are also disease resistant.

It has worked for me. In fact by the end of the weekend I may be updating my project threads to show how brother x sister mating followed by line breeding has paid off. But I had to wade through a lot of weak birds to get strong singular individuals that can now be used to make the breeds I want.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I can put my above statement another way; brother sister mating isn’t a good way to make a big, robust flock. Instead, its a good way to make outstanding individuals that you can later use to create a flock.

I have 2 threads on breeding to standards. The first is to the American game bantam:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/recreating-the-american-game-bantam.1349595/

The second started with my attempt to make a new kind of gamefowl bantam and has evolved to me breeding to the standards of the red junglefowl bantam as outlined by the American bantam association:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-new-serama-sized-game-bantam.1494488/

Both projects started with the same stock. A Florida Cracker gamefowl (junglefowl hybrid) named Tyrant bred over some Old English game bantam hens. These were my first attempts at breeding to standards as well as doing dedicated line (parent x child) and brother x sister breeding. I put both projects on hold partly out of frustration (I was reenforcing traits I didn’t want) and also by making flocks prone to Marek’s, which burned through without mercy. But certain individuals from each line were apparently immune to the Marek’s. They’ve survived and reproduced, and desired breed traits unlooked for have appeared. I’m currently on a farm in far west Florida evaluating individuals from the AGB line to bring back to revive both projects. If all goes well, I’ll be coming home with 7 individuals to start both lines back up, and I’ll outline in each thread how line/in breeding worked out and how I’m now going to freshen up the genetics while reenforcing my desired traits.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I know this is an older thread but what about brother sister breeding?

If you do the math (not easy) the genetic diversity you lose with sibling mating is exactly the same as with line breeding (parent to offspring). Even ignoring the sex linked genes you are dealing with gene pairs, not really individual genes. I discussed this with one of the genetics experts that is no longer active on this forum because I did not trust my math. This is full siblings. Half siblings would be more diverse.

The reason breeders use line breeding is that it is easier to concentrate on specific genes. If you select the parent and offspring for specific traits you are more likely to get those traits to repeat with a parent/offspring cross.

I understand that if you select your breeding siblings for specific traits those traits also more likely to show up in offspring than from random crossings. You can still move forward toward your goals with sibling mating but line breeding has become the standard.

by the end of the weekend I may be updating my project threads to show how brother x sister mating followed by line breeding has paid off.

A standard way to develop a flock and maintain genetic diversity is to use line breeding to develop the traits you want. You are going to lose genetic diversity when you line breed. You want to eliminate the genetics that you don't want so you can more consistently get the genetics you do want. But if you get too inbred your flock eventually loses productivity, fertility, and disease resistance. Once breeders get to where they want with line breeding they often switch to spiral breeding to maintain sufficient genetic diversity and still retain those traits. Spiral breeding is where you put the chickens into "families" and you breed the families in a specific rotation. They carefully pick which chickens get to breed. You can look up the details if you wish.

Most hatcheries use a different method, the pen breeding system. They might have 20 roosters in a pen with 200 hens with random breeding. The pure randomness of that breeding maintains sufficient genetic diversity that they can go decades without having to bring in new blood.

Then there was the way Dad did it. His flock was one mature rooster and about 25 to 30 hens. He'd keep his own replacements for a few generations then maybe every ten years bring in fresh blood. I remember him getting a dozen Dominique and ten years later New Hampshire chicks from the feed store and keeping a rooster and a few hens. I don't know how much of that was his desire for genetic diversity or if he was just bringing in better breeds to upgrade his flock. His flock had a lot of game traits in it.

Thee are different ways to go about any of this. What is "best" is not always straight forward.