First Bird Died (Marek's) - Second Doing Great After St. John's Wort Treatment

[abitaman633]

I posted a month ago about one of our seemingly strong, healthy chickens that we found shaking and who died a few hours later. (See here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/healthy-chicken-dead-24-hours-later.1217158/). The members on this forum were incredibly kind and helpful--and I wanted to post some follow-up on the off-chance it helps others down the road.

Two days after losing the aforementioned chicken we found another one of our chickens in the same predicament: shaking, paralyzed, rapidly changing pupils, etc. All indications pointed to Marek's Disease (even though both chickens were purchased from a reputable store and were supposed to be vaccinated). We contacted one of our local chicken experts who owns a chicken-raising/chicken-supply business who confirmed our suspicions of Marek's.

We immediately began treatment with St. John's Wort (Hypericum Perforatum) (30 mg tablets -- NOT capsules) following strict instructions.

Use only Distilled Water (~1 tablespoon). Completely dissolve pill in bottle (we chose glass bottle with a dropper). DO NOT let the solution touch metal. Give~15-20 drops of the solution to the infected bird. Make sure bird closes mouth (solution should hit top of mouth). Repeat every 12 hours with a freshly made solution.

We kept her in our garage and provided a heat lamp. We continued to follow the St. John's Wort treatment. Not sure how important the no metal/distilled water only/tablets not capsules/etc. specifics are but we follow just in case. We've read of the importance of these specific instructions elsewhere.

Our second bird began an almost immediate recovery. A bird that one month ago could not even move it's legs today is walking around. I am slowly re-introducing her to the flock (she was bottom of the chain to begin with and now is the recipient of constant pecking).

I know the above story is anecdotal but given other's success with St. John's Wort I will certainly take this approach next time I see Marek Disease-like symptoms in other birds.

 

[Kiki]

I'm glad to hear your girl is doing better.
Did you have a necropsy done on your last bird?

 

[rebrascora]

I'm afraid I've had too many birds suffering with Marek's that made these dramatic recoveries without St John's Wort or any other treatment for that matter, to be sceptical of it being an effective treatment.
There are no hard and fast rules with this disease and birds react very differently with it. I've had birds that were fine one day, lame the next, floundering on their side unable to get up the following day and then 2-3 days later, you could not tell they had been ill. They are always prone to further attacks but some go longer than a year before it hits them again and quality of life is normal in between. Others go down with a secondary attack within a few weeks or months. Some steady decline and die within days or a couple of weeks, some battle with it for months with supportive care and either regain some mobility or deteriorate. The thing that has been most beneficial in my experience is sunshine and grass and the company of other chickens within a safe environment (a large cage).
If your girl is getting pecked now that she is back in the flock, that will stress her which could very well trigger a secondary attack. Keeping them happy and stress free is so important once they have contracted the disease. Perhaps bring your mildest mannered bird into the cage in the house with her for a few days for them to buddy up and then put them both, still in the cage, in the pen with the rest of the flock, in a "see but not touch" situation for a few days or week before trying to reintegrate them fully. Be prepared for some fighting in the cage initially though, but don't intervene unless it gets bloody. Giving the "sick" bird home territory advantage with the cage in the house balances the odds against the healthy bird and makes them more likely to gain pecking order advantage and status, which will boost their confidence and that will help reintegrating with the flock.

 

[abitaman633]

Unfortunately, we did not. I know certain other diseases/ailments can resemble Marek's.

Metal Poisoning: Due to the sudden nature of the attack for the first bird I suspected metal poisoning and combed the yard for possible sources. We could not find anything.

Egg Binding: Unlikely this would have affected two birds so close together--but possible.

Mites: No evidence of mites.

Vitamin Deficiencies: Given the quick onset in both birds we doubted this would be the case.

Of course, it still could have been any of the above or an entirely separate cause. However, given how common Marek's is and the matching of symptoms we thought treating it as Marek's was a good bet.

 

[abitaman633]

I'm afraid I've had too many birds suffering with Marek's that made these dramatic recoveries without St John's Wort or any other treatment for that matter, to be sceptical of it being an effective treatment.
There are no hard and fast rules with this disease and birds react very differently with it. I've had birds that were fine one day, lame the next, floundering on their side unable to get up the following day and then 2-3 days later, you could not tell they had been ill. They are always prone to further attacks but some go longer than a year before it hits them again and quality of life is normal in between. Others go down with a secondary attack within a few weeks or months. Some steady decline and die within days or a couple of weeks, some battle with it for months with supportive care and either regain some mobility or deteriorate. The thing that has been most beneficial in my experience is sunshine and grass and the company of other chickens within a safe environment (a large cage).
If your girl is getting pecked now that she is back in the flock, that will stress her which could very well trigger a secondary attack. Keeping them happy and stress free is so important once they have contracted the disease. Perhaps bring your mildest mannered bird into the cage in the house with her for a few days for them to buddy up and then put them both, still in the cage, in the pen with the rest of the flock, in a "see but not touch" situation for a few days or week before trying to reintegrate them fully. Be prepared for some fighting in the cage initially though, but don't intervene unless it gets bloody. Giving the "sick" bird home territory advantage with the cage in the house balances the odds against the healthy bird and makes them more likely to gain pecking order advantage and status, which will boost their confidence and that will help reintegrating with the flock.

Thank you for the great advice. You are correct that my experience is anecdotal. I did run across the following quote in the broad Marek's Disease FAQ thread that is insightful:

"A study was conducted on chickens (published in 2012) using Hypericum. The chickens were intentionally infected with a Bursal disease virus (NOT Marek's) known as IBDV BC-6/85, and were given Hypericum therapy. The study found that a middle dosage of Hypericum of 667.9 mg/kg of Hypericum per body weight (BW) per day created the greatest change in the reduction of damage to the organs studied in the body. It is important to note that the findings were for a different disease than Marek's, and the results were not terribly different than the positive control group, but it did help. Note that none of the chickens in the study were ever 'cured' but simply suffered less damage."

 

[Kiki]

Unfortunately, we did not. I know certain other diseases/ailments can resemble Marek's.

Metal Poisoning: Due to the sudden nature of the attack for the first bird I suspected metal poisoning and combed the yard for possible sources. We could not find anything.

Egg Binding: Unlikely this would have affected two birds so close together--but possible.

Mites: No evidence of mites.

Vitamin Deficiencies: Given the quick onset in both birds we doubted this would be the case.

Of course, it still could have been any of the above or an entirely separate cause. However, given how common Marek's is and the matching of symptoms we thought treating it as Marek's was a good bet.

I think you should get a necropsy on the next bird/if you should lose another.
To know for sure.
I personally would want to know for sure instead of guessing.

 

[rebrascora]

Yes, it is possible it is something else. I read your other post about the one that died and it occurred to me it could be Fatty Liver Haemorrhagic Syndrome and she perhaps haemorrhaged due to the stress of laying that egg. That can be diet related, so other birds can be affected at the same time and a lot easier to manage/fix than Marek's as a dietary change should improve the risks to the rest of the flock.

 

[Kiki]

What do you feed your flock?

 

[janicew1290]

I know this was a post from a year ago, but would be very grateful if someone could clarify dose of saint johns wort. My bird with Marek's is a serama, weighing about a half a pound; I don't want to overdo it. Thanks for any direction, as I am frantic.

 

[Alicrawf914]

I posted a month ago about one of our seemingly strong, healthy chickens that we found shaking and who died a few hours later. (See here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/healthy-chicken-dead-24-hours-later.1217158/). The members on this forum were incredibly kind and helpful--and I wanted to post some follow-up on the off-chance it helps others down the road.

Two days after losing the aforementioned chicken we found another one of our chickens in the same predicament: shaking, paralyzed, rapidly changing pupils, etc. All indications pointed to Marek's Disease (even though both chickens were purchased from a reputable store and were supposed to be vaccinated). We contacted one of our local chicken experts who owns a chicken-raising/chicken-supply business who confirmed our suspicions of Marek's.

We immediately began treatment with St. John's Wort (Hypericum Perforatum) (30 mg tablets -- NOT capsules) following strict instructions.

Use only Distilled Water (~1 tablespoon). Completely dissolve pill in bottle (we chose glass bottle with a dropper). DO NOT let the solution touch metal. Give~15-20 drops of the solution to the infected bird. Make sure bird closes mouth (solution should hit top of mouth). Repeat every 12 hours with a freshly made solution.

We kept her in our garage and provided a heat lamp. We continued to follow the St. John's Wort treatment. Not sure how important the no metal/distilled water only/tablets not capsules/etc. specifics are but we follow just in case. We've read of the importance of these specific instructions elsewhere.

Our second bird began an almost immediate recovery. A bird that one month ago could not even move it's legs today is walking around. I am slowly re-introducing her to the flock (she was bottom of the chain to begin with and now is the recipient of constant pecking).

I know the above story is anecdotal but given other's success with St. John's Wort I will certainly take this approach next time I see Marek Disease-like symptoms in other birds.

Will St Johns Wort have any bad reactions with vitamin b, e, or selenium?