Leakage, breeding and moving forward..

[KhalSancho]

Hey guys, been a while.. busy with the baby.. in my time away all my ‘Cana gals started laying. (Got rid of the lavenders for breeding purposes.. and thought I lost this boy and our Muscovy duck to a predator, but he came strutting out of the bush today)
Here’s my question/dilemma:
Sax, my Roo has developed quite nice structurally.. nice comb, eyes are turning from a dark brown to more of a light brown/bay red, he’s a pretty good boy with his ladies and I really like him a lot.. BUT, I want to breed towards standard of perfection and he’s developed quite a bit of leakage.. I can live with it, IF I can breed it out for future generations of blues by putting him with nice black hens.. (even if it takes time, as true show quality blue cockerels are extremely hard to come by here in Australia.. there are either eye faults, leakage, comb faults, what have you)
I’ve got an offer from a couple reliable breeders here.. they both know I’m trying to achieve the darkest blues I can and have been up front about what they have available.. one has this little light blue cockerel but hasn’t checked for perfection as she knows I want DARK blue but she’s willing to check out eye colour and other marks if I want him.. would it be easier to work with him, even though he’s a lot lighter than my boy, if he has NO leakage? I just don’t know if it’s easier to work with a lighter roo with no leakage to bring Offspring to a darker blue OR try to breed the leakage out of my boys future offspring?
One more breeder said he has a couple nice ones but they have a fault of brown spots in the reds of their eyes or good eyes but the random black feather here n there(so that’s an option), he’s moving so won’t have pics of his til next week..
Three options going towards breeding for standard of perfection whilst getting the darkest blues possible:

A) Stick with Sax, the leakage can be bred out (how many generations would you estimate?)

B) Take the lighter blue boy with no leakage, you can darken up feathers and improve lacing easier than getting rid of leakage (how many estimated generations to darken up?)

C) Wait for pictures of the other cockerel with the eye colour (brown speckles in the red) fault or random black feather fault. If he is darker and has no leakage, the eye or random feather fault is easiest to breed out! (Estimate?)

Thanks guys.. first few pics are my boy Sax.. last one is the lighter blue boy the first breeder has available

 

[KhalSancho]

Anyone?

 

[MokiYoki]

Leakage usually shows in your roosters and hides in the hens. So you really want your roosters to not be leaky if you don't want leaky roosters in the future.
However I usually make leakage my lowest priority, and that young cockerel still has time to develop his own leakage. His beak and legs are also much lighter making me think he could lack genes for the dark hackle and tail such as melanotic. Also its wise to be patient and have a look at this third option rooster, occasional black feathers and miss coloured eyes sounds like it would be easy to breed out. But I don't breed for show so don't take my word on the ease of that.

Personally I use two roosters. One with no (or minimal) leakage, and one that is my best of the best ignoring the leakage. That way I can maintain the genetics I need within my flock without any doubts until my blackest roosters are also my best roosters. Ideally you don't use hens from your leaky rooster in this scenario so that your future generations of hens wont hide as much leakage. Side plus is that even though your leaky roosters wont meet the SOP the hens will still have perfect black/blue feathers that will be good for show.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

The age difference between the two cockerels makes comparing them apples to oranges. The younger bird has yet to develop his saddle. MokiYoki brings up a good point in that the lighter legs may prove inability of dark hackle and saddle in that boy. On the other hand there are Blue variety breeds with dark hackle and saddle that have little slate on legs. Blue Plymouth Rock for example.

The gig is patients. You've no idea how that cockerel will develop. Red leakage shows up when the bird is maturing, I'll see it in birds as late as 26 weeks of age. If it's a good deal on that extra cockerel my opinion is to grab it now and grow it out. The reasons for this are many, first and foremost death can occur at any minute, if you've only one breeder you can hit a wall at anytime due to a hawk or weasel. Secondly that young boy has potential. From what I see he has better lacing than your bird. It's an important component and he's got better genetics for it.

Leakage is not hard to get rid of if you've another line of birds without it. If you're working a line that has leakage/autosomal red then it's hard to get rid of. It comes down to what the lineage is of your birds. If they are a recent crossing then hatching enough and keeping enough cockerels to 7 months to see if it expresses is a route to find those not expressing. If your birds are a line, been bred for many generations without outsourcing, then you probably won't breed it out. How ingrained is it in the line? Is there even a genetic possibility to have a cockerel without it? I bred a beauty of a cock with autosomal red to another line with many pluses but smaller size. In doing this was able to find a few that didn't express. Downside of crossing lines is sometimes they don't niche well and things like side sprigs can pop up. Then you're fighting that. All in all it's an uphill battle no matter what you do. Just ensure you've a genetic chance to breed what you want. If you've got that then hatch, hatch and hatch some more until you achieve it.

Good Luck,

G

 

[KhalSancho]

The age difference between the two cockerels makes comparing them apples to oranges. The younger bird has yet to develop his saddle. MokiYoki brings up a good point in that the lighter legs may prove inability of dark hackle and saddle in that boy. On the other hand there are Blue variety breeds with dark hackle and saddle that have little slate on legs. Blue Plymouth Rock for example.

The gig is patients. You've no idea how that cockerel will develop. Red leakage shows up when the bird is maturing, I'll see it in birds as late as 26 weeks of age. If it's a good deal on that extra cockerel my opinion is to grab it now and grow it out. The reasons for this are many, first and foremost death can occur at any minute, if you've only one breeder you can hit a wall at anytime due to a hawk or weasel. Secondly that young boy has potential. From what I see he has better lacing than your bird. It's an important component and he's got better genetics for it.

Leakage is not hard to get rid of if you've another line of birds without it. If you're working a line that has leakage/autosomal red then it's hard to get rid of. It comes down to what the lineage is of your birds. If they are a recent crossing then hatching enough and keeping enough cockerels to 7 months to see if it expresses is a route to find those not expressing. If your birds are a line, been bred for many generations without outsourcing, then you probably won't breed it out. How ingrained is it in the line? Is there even a genetic possibility to have a cockerel without it? I bred a beauty of a cock with autosomal red to another line with many pluses but smaller size. In doing this was able to find a few that didn't express. Downside of crossing lines is sometimes they don't niche well and things like side sprigs can pop up. Then you're fighting that. All in all it's an uphill battle no matter what you do. Just ensure you've a genetic chance to breed what you want. If you've got that then hatch, hatch and hatch some more until you achieve it.

Good Luck,

G

So I went ahead and got that young cockerel to see how he grows out because he kept developing very promisingly. Check him out!

 

[Egghead_Jr]

He's looking good so far. How old is he? Remember it could be up to 26 week before he shows red leakage.

As for you wanting darker blue birds this can be achieved by using the best black offspring from this mating. The blue color of hen a black bird is covering will be enhanced/darkened in the offspring.

Blue to blue matings is best as you can match up a breeding group to the color blue you are going for. Little darker to little lighter of desired tone will produce more offspring of that tone of blue you want. What will happen in few generations of blue to blue matings is the tone of blue lightens. To correct it you use a black bird in next mating.

Cheers