Livestock guardian dogs

[drake01]

Let me be clear I have no expertise in lgds. But for a 5 acre piece of land is it necessary to have such a large dog. I would think if your only really dealing with predators up to coyotes and stray dogs my vote goes with Doberman pinchers. I have 2 and 5 acres they can cross in about 25 seconds. When they get there they are all business. Not really a " livestock guardian" breed by definition but are easy to train, super loyal, easy to care for, and would work for a small place like that. Not sure where your at but only downside is super cold climates might not be best. Good ones are easy to find and priced accordingly. My female was straight from Europe excellent lineage but you can get them cheaper, any where for $500-$700. I know you will think it's stupid to think of them as a livestock guardian but mine will even herd cattle.

 

[mohawkbrian]

I agree. Someone who walks through my land has one and dosent even look qt the birds but it is strong fast and powerfull enough to knock a person down so would make short work of a coyote

 

[drake01]

My female caught a coyote at my dairy farm when she was around a year old, I thought I would be going to the vet. She bite on to his head and a little shake that was it. Crushed his melon. She will even move stuff like tires and pallets to get mice and rats. They were never bred to be prey driven which helps with them not chasing livestock and with a little encouragement they become vermin/predator eradicators.

 

[hungry]

"...but mine will even herd cattle."

Isn't that a sign that they aren't really suitable for the LGD role?

I don't have experience with LGDs per se, but I have experience with a 2.5 acre fenced yard in coyote country, and various size dogs. We had dogs that were about 40lbs, about 60lbs, about 80lbs, and about 120lbs.

By far the most effective protector was the 120lb dog. I don't think he ever killed a coyote because I don't think the coyotes ever gave him a chance. If they were trying the fence he would charge in barking and the 'yotes would scatter. On the other hand the 60lb and under dogs might as well not have been there as far as the coyotes were concerned. The dogs that size who weren't afraid of the coyote packs didn't live long.


I don't have any particular opinion of dobermans. I've only ever really dealt with two, a pair owned by a friend to guard their family jewelry store. They seemed like nice enough dogs but as I recall they were perfectly happy to chase ducks and the like when given half an opportunity. Keeping them from doing so required a lot of strength.

 

[coloradoalice]

I think it all depends on where you live too. If you are somewhere with cold winters you need something bred to handle the weather, a guardian dog isn't much good if it's not outside 24/7. Our other dog is a lab and she guards the chickens too but she cannot handle being outside with them all the time which is why we got a GP. We are at 6500 feet in Colorado though, no such thing as a mild winter here. A doberman wouldn't be ok outside here all the time. In fact there aren't many dogs at all who can not only survive but enjoy below freezing temps. The GP loves it though, he's happier the colder it gets, lol!

 

[CASDOG1]

Lurchers are hunting dogs, NOT LGDs. They're bred to hunt & kill, not protect a territory. They're just as likely to kill your birds as they are to kill predators & it's a lot of work to make them livestock safe. And even if they are livestock safe, because they hunt rather than guard, they will chase predators into the next county, leaving your birds unprotected. Predators are smart & think nothing of sending in a decoy to lure the dogs off & sending in another team to make the kill. True LGDs are quick to learn this trick & will not leave the stock no matter how much they want to get the predator. I have both LGDs & sighthounds (Borzoi Azawakh, & Saluki) & while my hounds will absolutely kill a coyote (& have more than once) they will leave the livestock to do it. And while my own hounds have never chased my stock, I never leave them alone with them either so they never get the chance. Hunting dogs & guardian dogs are *very* different animals.

~~~
Anna and the Thunder Mountain Gang
Woodruff, SC

 

[CASDOG1]

A Doberman cannot handle predators. It doesn't take nearly enough power to take down a human being that battling predators requires. Coyotes routinely kill pet dogs the size of Dobermans & German Shepherd Dogs. A 40 pound coyote will kill an 80 pound Doberman easily. Dobermans are also highly active while LGD breeds are not & thus require a lot more space, attention, & exercise than an LGD. LGDs aren't large so they can cover huge areas, they're large so they can resist injury in fights with multiple predators at a time. Dobermans are meant for human protection only & lack the power, toughness, & instincts to guard livestock from predators. They also can't live outdoors in cold or inclement weather & have no instinct for bonding with livestock.

There is a LOT of bad information out there about LGDs & why most dogs that are not of LGD breeds will not be able to perform as LGDs. Here is a list of traits you will find in all good LGDs. Remember, just because a dog is protective of you doesn't mean it is a good livestock guardian dog. They are not hunting or herding dogs, either. These traits below are ALL required for a good LGD. I wrote this for an educational group I run which exists to help people learn about LGDs, from selecting, raising, & training a pup to finding a good breeder or rescue to understand the many different breeds & why LGDs are different from other breeds of dogs.

~~~

Myth #2) Any breed or mix of breeds will be a good LGD if it is raised with livestock from puppyhood.

This myth was propogated by a a well-known author & is a constant thorn in the side of experienced LGD folks. The fact is, while certain individual dogs of a non LGD breed or breeds may occasionally work out as a working livestock guardian, this in no way suggests that just any dog anywhere can do it. Breeds exist because people discovered the simple genetic truth that breeding like to like has a greater tendency to produce like. LGD breeds have been bred for many years, in some cases millenia, to have a particular set of traits that predispose them to be good at the specific task of living with livestock 24/7, without immediate human direction, & protecting them from all threats. These traits include:

*a powerful, athletic, & agile build, able to soak as well as dish out a great deal of damage
*thick, loose skin (thicker than any other canid) which is difficult to pierce
*a high territorial defense drive that causes them to stand their ground rather than flee from a threat
*a naturally calm, submissive demeanor around flighty prey animals
*a physical morphology which gives them a softer expression which also serves to make them less intimidating in appearance to livestock
*low prey drive
*an instinctive ability to evaluate threat level & respond accordingly
*an affinity for weak & small animals (including children)
*a harsh, all weather, double coat which protects them from heat, cold, injury, wetness, dirt, & debris
*the ability to think independently, problem solve, take quick stock of any situation, & make effective decisions at a moment's notice
*the instinct to conserve their energy so they are always ready to take action
*a lower metabolism that requires less food for their size

If it does not possess ALL of these traits, it is not an LGD.

~~~~
Anna & the Thunder Mountain Gang
Woodruff, SC

 

[drake01]

On large scale operations you do need proper LGD's, but on smaller homestead type farms with some chickens and a goat or pig there really isn't a need for those dogs IMO I live in new York and our coyotes are smaller then yours I would guess and not as plentiful. I have never seen a pack with more then 5 in it. I only know one guy that has actual lgds alot of them I think they are great pryese or whatever, giant white dogs but he has them with his sheep, 3000 ewes, and every spring still has lambs come up missing. Everyone else I know seems to get by with different breeds of dogs with minimal loss. I'm just saying that for a few acres of land and a small amount of livestock can successfully be kept safe with dobies, labs, pitbulls. After all if on 5 acres you have predation problems that a 100lb dog can't handle its time to get out the gun and tame back the wild a little.

 

[coloradoalice]

None of those dogs you mention are appropriate for livestock guarding 24/7 though, those breeds will not patrol when winter weather is at it's worse and they shouldn't be left out in the elements anyway.

We have 3 acres and a lab. We didn't stop losing chickens to coyotes until we got the GP. A little overkill? Maybe. But was he bred to do the job, is he physically prepared for the job, does he do his job without any oversight and basically no training because of instinct. Yep. In my opinion you want a dog that will just do it's job. The instinct that is bred into the livestock guardian breeds is undeniable. Maybe you have to own one to understand how totally different the behaviors and instinct and everything is. Our GP loves us but he's never not 100% focused on patrol. He comes for pets but he will take off in a flash if he thinks somethings up. He doesn't work for our approval or because of training, he works because that's what he must do, he just can't not.

 

[hungry]

Pits aren't intimidating to coyotes and coyotes are known to attack them. http://newportbeach.patch.com/articles/pitbull-attacked-by-coyote Beyond that, they are bred to fixate on a single prey animal, which means a couple pack members distract the pit while the others eat the cats, chickens, and whatever else they can get. Beyond that... well, they are hunters and here's the future of your chickens with a pit to defend them: .

It seems like a generally lousy choice as a livestock guardian.

While we're at it, why not some basset hounds? After all, they can be used to hunt coyotes....

My largest dog was a runt Irish Wolfhound...not really a runt but he was at the bottom of the standard for breed. He had no trouble defending my property from coyotes, and as such his presence protected the smaller animals in the area, but he wasn't a livestock guardian and I wouldn't have chosen him as such. Why? Hint: it wasn't that he was too big for the property.

Guns aren't always an option, especially on smaller parcels.