Natural breeding thread

[BDutch]

your broodies would get better at predator awareness and evasion, and pass on their increased and improving knowledge to their chicks, if you let them range. We have crows amongst other predators and have not lost a chick to them in years, despite being out free ranging as soon as the broody brings them off the nest (typically at 2 days old).

I believe you are right that the mothers get better over time. But I also believe that chickens are not fit to survive in many habitats. Some habitats just bc of a predator overload. Even if they are well nourished in combination of what they find and have access to safe shelter in the night what the owner or the public gives them, free ranging can be to tough.

Some breeds do better in surviving than others of course. But there are surely habitats where even the best heritage breeds and mixes wouldn’t live long as a group or a tribe due to predation.
And experiencing many losses is for most people a good reason to keep their flock more secure.

 

[Perris]

My feeling from scanning BYC threads is that losses from predation among free ranging flocks are lower than losses from disease caused by being 'securely' locked up.

I do agree with your point though about some breeds being better than others at predator detection and evasion. Predator 'overload' I'm less sure about; predator and prey populations usually find a balance. And predators that break into 'secure' coops can inflict many more losses than they would manage with birds that could flee.

 

[Skyeknight]

But I also believe that chickens are not fit to survive in many habitats. Some habitats just bc of a predator overload.

I think this is more a habitat problem than predator overload problem. Chickens are originally from the Asian jungles, and if there is 1 thing that jungles and rainforest are known for than it's the biodiversity and sheer number of species that live in them. Take roosting for example, this already saves them from all non-climbing species like canines. Most people keep chickens in open grass and not area's with lots of foliage, chickens simply aren't made for open area's. Ofcourse you have certain chickens that will basically always do worse in terms of predator survival than small landraces like polish, Auraucana's, silkies, frizzles and very big chickens.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

Some breeds do better in surviving than others of course. But there are surely habitats where even the best heritage breeds and mixes wouldn’t live long as a group or a tribe due to predation.

The presence of a single dog would prevent 99% of predators from showing up. If you have tough chickens and a dog then they're basically immune to predation

Predators that break into 'secure' coops can inflict many more losses than they would manage with birds that could flee.

I've seen countless examples of this online. One gentleman posted on BYC a few months ago saying that foxes broke into his coop and literally killed 100 chickens. These kinds of massacres are only possible with cooped chickens

I think this is more a habitat problem than predator overload problem. Chickens are originally from the Asian jungles, and if there is 1 thing that jungles and rainforest are known for than it's the biodiversity and sheer number of species that live in them. Take roosting for example, this already saves them from all non-climbing species like canines.

This is very true. I've always heard it said that junglefowl and bamboo have a symbiotic relationship, and comparing maps of junglefowl and bamboo distribution the two are almost identical. Junglefowl roost on the highest tips of bamboo stalks, which bend over slightly and absolutely nothing can reach them up there. If anything was foolish enough to make the attempt the junglefowl would just fly away, launching the predator like in Loony Toons

The extreme opposite of this ecosystem would be an open field, which is a death sentence for a jungle animal

 

[TOMTE]

I think this is more a habitat problem than predator overload problem. Chickens are originally from the Asian jungles, and if there is 1 thing that jungles and rainforest are known for than it's the biodiversity and sheer number of species that live in them. Take roosting for example, this already saves them from all non-climbing species like canines. Most people keep chickens in open grass and not area's with lots of foliage, chickens simply aren't made for open area's. Ofcourse you have certain chickens that will basically always do worse in terms of predator survival than small landraces like polish, Auraucana's, silkies, frizzles and very big chickens.

Yes, open areas are something I noticed my flock staying away from when they were ranging. They preferred the edge of the woods where there's plenty of brush to forage and hide in. In the open yard they were jumpy and always on the alert, and would move quickly to somewhere more sheltered. We have tons of birds of prey here of all kinds of species. In all of the close calls we had, brush and other hiding spots always saved the chickens.

I do find it interesting that even though they were raised in a brooder for about a week or two before they were moved permanently into the run, they seem really predator savvy. They didn't have any older flock members to show them the ropes. I noticed early on that they were very in tune with the other birds and critters out there. If, for example, a chipmunk or blue jay sounded the alarm, my chooks would look around to assess the danger. They still do this, even shut in the run.

The first time I heard them give the hawk warning trill, they were only a month or so old. It was amazing, because I didn't see anything, but I followed their line of sight and sure enough there was a bird soaring so high up that it was basically a speck in the sky!

I'm sure predator savviness is learned to an extent but it's also deeply instinctual. They just need a chance to practice to get it right. Of course I wouldn't have let my girls range by themselves when they were so tiny, but I think raising them in the run from a young age exposed them to situations that "unlocked" these specific instincts, if that makes sense. They had to teach themselves because they didn't have a flock to show them the ropes but I think they've done really well.

 

[Skyeknight]

I'm sure predator savviness is learned to an extent but it's also deeply instinctual.

This is definitely true and the term for this is innate behaviour. Innate behaviour can be passed onto their offspring. An example of this is that sheep will always be afraid of dogs even if they have never met them before. They just know it is a predator and therefore dangerous. This type of behaviour is pretty easy to inherit since the offspring that has it has more chance to survive and procreate.

 

[fluffycrow]

I believe you are right that the mothers get better over time. But I also believe that chickens are not fit to survive in many habitats. Some habitats just bc of a predator overload. Even if they are well nourished in combination of what they find and have access to safe shelter in the night what the owner or the public gives them, free ranging can be to tough.

Some breeds do better in surviving than others of course. But there are surely habitats where even the best heritage breeds and mixes wouldn’t live long as a group or a tribe due to predation.
And experiencing many losses is for most people a good reason to keep their flock more secure.

I’m not so sure anymore. As you know, after the fox attack back in September, I locked the birds up for a long time. I too, was worried that the fox would come back and decimate the groups. I had tangible proof after all; the fox came back the next morning after the attack.

Being a few months away from the situation however, I’m starting to think that I’ve got things backwards. If predators were to come back day after day, slowly killing the whole group, then there is simply no way Shad’s tribes in Catalonia could have worked. It is my understanding that the property the Catalonian tribes were free ranging was right next to a national park; surely more wild, and as such, a larger number and diversity of predators than what I have here.

On the other hand, cooped flocks gets killed by the dozens from fox attacks (granted that the coop can be breached). In a free range setting, at least the birds have a chance to escape.

There are definitely going to be losses when free ranging. Quite a few in the beginning I imagine, before the birds have a chance to become predator aware through learnt behaviour and natural selection.

At some point, though, most of the birds will be predator aware, and capable of avoiding most threats. Naturally, when the predators realise that they can no longer hunt the chickens with ease, they will move on, only coming back periodically, if at all

 

[BDutch]

The presence of a single dog would prevent 99% of predators from showing up. If you have tough chickens and a dog then they're basically immune to predation

Dogs in general are predators and there are many stories on BYC about dogs who killed chickens. Often its the neighbours dog, but peoples own dog do kill their chickens too quite often.
Only a well trained and reliable dog can protect your chickens.

An example of this is that sheep will always be afraid of dogs even if they have never met them before. They just know it is a predator and therefore dangerous. This type of behaviour is pretty easy to inherit since the offspring that has it has more chance to survive and procreate.

My chickens are more than afraid of dogs. My Dutch bantams fligh high and far over the hedge to the neighbors property when they spot a dog.

I’m not so sure anymore.

I have my doubts too. But fully free ranging is not something I would dare to do. And small chicks with a mama in my garden is a no go for me too, bc there is an overload of cats and other chick predators. I do free range my chickens but only if we are at home. Some days they have to stay in the run, some days they have many hours to free range.

I know people who bought 8 hens and a coop. These acquaintances free ranged their hens and they started to sleep in the trees soon after they bought them. They lost all chickens within 2 years. Their garden was in a forest, but not a dense forest and there were bushes to hide too. They didn’t have a rooster, not sure if that would have made much difference.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

Dogs in general are predators and there are many stories on BYC about dogs who killed chickens. Often its the neighbours dog, but peoples own dog do kill their chickens too quite often.
Only a well trained and reliable dog can protect your chickens.

Not all dogs are fine around chickens but any outdoor dog that can at least ignore chickens will still be a huge deterrent to predators. My brother started with chickens and no coop about a year ago and he has two hunting dogs. They couldn't care less about his chickens and just ignore them, but it still prevents nearly all predators from coming around

I know people who bought 8 hens and a coop. These acquaintances free ranged their hens and they started to sleep in the trees soon after they bought them. They lost all chickens within 2 years. Their garden was in a forest, but not a dense forest and there were bushes to hide too. They didn’t have a rooster, not sure if that would have made much difference.

A flock without a rooster isn't a living tribe and can only experience death

Chickens are R-selected and typically reproduce fast and in high numbers to compensate for predation. First generation production chickens with no survival instincts, no mother that trained them, no ability to reproduce, and nothing protecting them are doomed

At minimum a self-perpetuating free-ranging flock needs tough genetics, broody hens and a rooster

 

[BDutch]

A flock without a rooster isn't a living tribe and can only experience death

Many people cannot have roosters bc of city or residence laws. They have no tribes but a flock.
Experiencing death is something I try to avoid. Therefore I keep my chickens partly locked up during the day and always at night. 3 out of 5 of my original chickens survived predation for 10 years without a rooster.
Not one of them died from disease or old age.

Chickens are R-selected and typically reproduce fast and in high numbers to compensate for predation.

To compensate for predation is why many BYC keepers don’t like free ranging. I was referring to a rooster as the first chicken to sound the alarm when something is wrong. Not as a must have for fertilised eggs.

First generation production chickens with no survival instincts,

These chickens I was refering to were no production chickens but an old heritage breed that could fly into rather high trees. Im not sure if it was a Friesian or a breed that resembles the Friesian. They were well equipped flight chickens.
The normal life span of these kind of chickens is much more than 2 years.